ADHD-friendly working and the power of asking questions with ADHD coach Karen

Hi, we are the ADHD Skills Lab podcast. My name is Skye. And my name is Sarah. And we will be your hosts chatting to you about practical ADHD strategies you can use, the research behind some of these strategies, as well as interviewing other professionals with ADHD about how they've developed skills and working through struggles in their lives. You might know us from Unconventional Organization, where we talk about this kind of stuff all day long. So we're super excited to have you along and we're going to chat through it together. 

Today we are joined by the wonderful Karen Arthur. Karen is a head coach at Unconventional Organization. Prior to working with us, Karen worked in the community sector as a support worker and a team leader for over 20 years. She completed a Bachelor of Development Studies, which was actually the impetus for her ADHD diagnosis. Karen has five children ranging from 29 to 11. three of which also have ADHD. So she has a lot of experience with neurodiverse parenting. And I'm really excited to be able to talk to her today. So welcome, Karen. It's great to have you here. Thank you, Skye. Lovely to be here. Yeah, so tell me a little bit, obviously I know because we work together, but where are you calling from? Actually from Australia, Hunter Valley. It's about 45 minutes west of Newcastle. It's a beautiful part of the world. Awesome. Yeah. So Karen actually, we'll get into it a little bit more later on in the podcast, but Karen is the head coach for Australia. So she's taking care of all the Australian coaches. And yeah, definitely going to be talking about that today as well. So I mentioned a little bit that you were diagnosed with ADHD around sort of when you were studying for university, but I'd love to know what was your diagnosis journey like? So I'm light diagnosed. Back in 2016, I was 45, a little bit further down the track than a lot of other people. But I've always thought there was something, an issue with me. Back in my 20s, I did go to a therapist. From memory, I was having a lot of outbursts and over the top reactions to things that probably didn't require it. Also, I was always running late and the usual ADHD things. very difficult to organize my life. At the time I didn't even think anything of ADHD. I had heard of it, but it was just in the sense of that typical naughty schoolboy type impression people have. Then he basically sent me off and said I had no issues and I had nothing to worry about. My life was fine. I had no problems that he could see. So then I turned it back in on myself thinking, oh, it must be me. It's all in my head. I think that can be a big struggle. It's interesting you mentioned that for you, it was emotional regulation that was really the thing that brought you to a diagnosis. And we often talk about the importance of emotional regulation, but it's not really discussed and not even really a part of an ADHD diagnosis. So it is really interesting to hear you say that was a focus for you. Absolutely. And I couldn't figure it out myself because everything in my life at that time was going okay, but then I'd have this really low tolerance to frustration and I would have inappropriate reactions, as I said, more over the top than you would expect. Yeah. And a lot of people will understand what you mean by that. We talk about ADHD and emotional regulation and that. Low impulsivity. We're at like 10 when everyone else is at a three. Absolutely. Definitely. Definitely a struggle. Yeah. Okay. And how long from, you know, you said you sort of initially went to a therapist and were sort of sent back and then you went again. So how long between the second time do you remember how long it took you to actually get a diagnosis? How it would have been in my late thirties was the next time I approached it. So basically. Still those emotional regulation issues were there. I had lots of courses that I'd started over the years. I had a few children by then. I was still the typical hot mess that I always was, running late, feeling stressed, overwhelmed. And I did ask the GP about, could it be ADHD? And at the time he said, oh, well, we'll send you to a counselor so you can help figure that out. That counselor happened to have the belief that ADHD wasn't really a thing. Right. Yeah. So I think she was trying to sort of give me some ways to organize my life, which was fine. But I think there was just no validation there at all. And I lasted about three sessions and then again, gave up, put it on hold. Life was always busy. I didn't have time to sort of waste. No, totally. I mean, apart from anything else, you have five kids. I just got one kid. We were talking about that. That's a big thing. You had a lot of executive functioning to do apart from the executive functioning of trying to get an ADHD diagnosis. Exactly. So when did you actually get the diagnosis then? What happened there? Yeah. So back in 2016, I started my degree. I loved it so much and I love going to the classes and I loved planning the assessments and I loved the whole thing, except when it came down to actually reading those big articles. which I know I would have, I knew I would find interesting. There was so much, it felt like anxiety. Every time I was about to sit down, I just had this immense anxiety and I couldn't sit still. And I'd have all these things going on. Like I would have to get up and get a drink of water. I'd have to get up and use the bathroom. I just couldn't settle in. I was there for a few minutes and then all of a sudden, because the conditions weren't sort of perfect, I just couldn't sit down to read until everything was sorted, but by that stage I'd sort of given up and I thought I'll do it later because I can't do it right now. Just a lot of that was going on. I really wanted to do well. I really wanted to do well and I just thought I'm just going to have to get some help because at this stage I was pretty sure. I'd done lots of deep dives on ADHD. I thought, yeah, I think that's what it is, but I'd never worried too much about it. So I found out. psychiatrist who had an interest in ADHD. So I basically had to sort of do a bit of research before I went to the GP because I knew that they would either palm me off or not really know of a appropriate professional. So you found somebody who was more sort of ADHD focused and then you were able to actually get the support and get the diagnosis at that point. Absolutely. It was really, really helpful. And the reason I ask people what their diagnosis story is, is because it's often, journey, how did you feel when you actually got the diagnosis? I felt relieved and validated and it was just, it feels weird to sort of be happy about a diagnosis, but it feels affirming. It makes you review your past and all the things that have happened. And you sort of see that in a new lens. It's an interesting process. Yeah, it definitely, definitely is. And it is a funny one, you know. When people say they just got diagnosed with ADHD, I often say congratulations, which feels a bit weird, but I do know how much work has often gone into that, to get to that place and how much, you know, financial investment has gone in as well. So sometimes by the time you get there, it does feel like something that you want to be like, congratulations, this is going to be emotional, but you know, you did it. You got through. And I find a lot of people run by that. narrative of, oh, you know, you don't want to label people. And, but in the end, other people will put a label on you anyway. You will get labeled as lazy or disorganized. So at least if you've got that label of ADHD, there is definitely a reason. And, and there is a path to finding strategies to work around it. Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. We've talked a little bit about your ADHD diagnosis journey. But how did you come to work at an unconventional organization? You've been working with us for a while now. You've been such a big part of our team. I'd love to know from your perspective, what was the thing that made you decide to shift? After I finished my uni degree, that was in 2020, I was spending quite a bit of time just looking for jobs, looking for things that I could do to challenge myself. The current work I was in, it was... shift work, it was something I'd been doing for many, many years. It was that horrible combination of being bored and stressed at the same time. The nature of the job was very fast moving, lots of transitions, lots of stuff going on. And as I was getting old, I was coping less with. So yes, I was looking for something else. But I was finding I was starting all these job applications, getting excited about these new jobs and then For whatever reason, I would find some excuse not to actually send the applications away. Oh, interesting. Part of that was to do with, there were so many things to put into the applications. These days you almost have to write a novel with some of them because the demand is so high. So I guess that was my ADHD sort of coming into play there. Also, probably a lot of emotional blocks as well. It would have been a long time since I had applied for a job. So there was likely a fair bit of self-doubt and fear. But I came across your ad on LinkedIn and it was the easiest application I had ever written in terms of, wow, I can hit all these marks quite easily, all the essentials, but it wasn't long. It wasn't a long process. It wasn't too demanding. And I thought, oh well, what the heck, I'll just do it. And it was wonderful. We're very glad you did. Thank you. Yeah, we try and make the processes ADHD friendly as possible. We don't require a cover letter, for example, but we do a little 15 minute interview so that way we've both booked in a time, the dopamine is on, we're having a chat, and that kind of is the cover letter. Especially because a lot of what you do as a coach is talking, so we want to chat to people and see what they're like. An unconventional organization, we're a predominantly neurodiverse organization. Obviously, all of our coaches have ADHD. But also, a lot of the people working in our admin team have ADHD. A lot of the people working in our marketing team have ADHD. So have you noticed... I say this as somebody who's not really worked in that kind of space that you worked in. Would you say there's any real differences you see being part of a predominantly neurodiverse organization? There are a few and certainly there are things that may be a really like a very advanced organization in terms of those softer skills and qualities. So things like empathy and in terms of ADHD, you know that everybody gets it. If you need a little bit of extra time, it's not usually a problem. There's no huge pressure. Everybody is understanding. Lots of flexibility. recognizing the strengths of each individual. Oh, so it's sounding really good for me. No, absolutely. It's no, it's so true. And I appreciate it. Yeah. I wasn't expecting that many, many nice things, but I appreciate it. Yeah. But in particular, the main thing that really sort of stands out is the efforts that are put in to make the paperwork sort of ADHD friendly in the admin systems. And also things like the timing of when we're sent things. We're not given a lot of things too far in advance. And if we are admin, I sort of really helpful and they remind us. Yeah. Those sort of things are really well thought out and helpful too. For example, one of the admin ladies who we actually deal with quite a bit, she is going on leave and, um, yeah, Robin shout out to Robin. Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful person. Very, very helpful. But basically she is actually going to put on our calendars that she is away. So we don't accidentally contact her because she knows we're going to forget what dates she's away and when she's due back. Yeah. But that's wonderful. No, that is interesting. And I will say, you know, Robin and all the directors have a huge part in making the organization ADHD friendly, especially as we grow. Having a team who have ADHD themselves, who are directors who kind of help come up with these ideas and talk to the coaches has been a huge factor in sort of continuing to develop because we definitely have a lot left to do. What would you say, I guess, to somebody who maybe they run a small business or maybe they are a manager in a team and they want to make things a little bit more ADHD friendly? or neurodiverse friendly, what do you think now that you've been in two different kinds of organizations would be a strategy that you would recommend? Basically a really good strategy would be getting to know people as individuals. And I know that's not always practical depending on the size of the organization. However, in terms of getting the best performance out of people, it's important to recognize their strengths and that collaborative style. of working, which again, is not just neurodivergent based, but it's certainly something that not everyone has embraced at this point. Just that willingness to put in those workplace accommodations and those individual needs that people may have just to help them out and be open either to themselves self-advocating for what they need or those more macro structures put in place. being able to use those headphones or smaller but more frequent breaks and things like that, even doodling in meetings, you know, like just that general acceptance of people's little quirks and differences. Yeah, definitely. All our meetings are on zoom. So if you're doodling, we don't know, but it is encouraged. Um, no, that's good. That's awesome. And I, and I would say, yeah, that idea of, like you said, that flexibility. It's like getting to know the people on your team, which can be tough, especially if your team is transitioning or turning over quite a lot. Getting to know the people on your team, figuring out what their strengths and weaknesses are, and then having a little bit of flexibility about how to support their strengths and how to minimize their weaknesses. I think that's exactly right. And that is important regardless of whether you're working with a neurodiverse group of people or not. It's just, it can be a lot of work. It can be a lot of setup and, you know, setting up systems to support that and people to support that. We've done a lot working with head coaches because you guys are such an important part, you are able to talk to the coaches and, and then provide that fortnightly supervision and really get into, you know, people's experiences. And that is a really big factor of what we've done. Right from the beginning, you know, we decided to bring our supervision in house because we wanted to make sure that it was in line with the research and in line with the ADHD strategies and coaching that we've been training people in and at Unconventional, you actually did, you know, move quite quickly from being an ADHD coach to a head coach. So what was that transition like? That transition was extremely gentle and it was much appreciated. Yeah, it was definitely deliberately set up. I was not thrown into the deep end. There was still quite a few new things to sort of get used to, but that whole sort of hands on getting used to the process was really helpful. Yeah. No, awesome. And you worked a lot with Sarah, who is our coaching director, who manages all of the head coaches and supports the coaches as well. So she was able to sort of let you shadow her during sessions and kind of work on that. 

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In terms of moving into a more leadership role, I know you also worked as a team leader. For a lot of people, that transition can be quite anxiety-inducing, I think, especially with ADHD. I mean, even for me, starting going from an independent academic and coach to running my own team, there was a bit of like, Okay, imposter syndrome, here we go. Yeah, exactly. And with ADHD, you've got that self-criticism as well. So I was really interested to know from your perspective, how did you feel and what did you do to feel comfortable? Because you are such a great head coach now. You're somebody that we always talk about as being amazing at what you do when we're chatting in the meetings and stuff about like, oh, Karen's so great. So how did you? How did you kind of take on that responsibility? Cause it is, it is a responsibility. It is. And in my previous job, I think it was the difference between becoming apart from the practical tasks of the actual job, it's that shifting in headspace. You're not only responsible for yourself. You are now responsible for yourself and other people. And so that takes on a higher level of executive demands. And also emotional because if you're not in a level sort of place, it can weigh upon you quite heavily. But in terms of transitioning into a new role, my recommendation would be to ask a lot of questions because a lot of time and emotional energy can be wasted on trying to sort of figure things out yourself or fill in the gaps yourself. And that can be quite taxing. No question is a silly question. Write things down, support that working memory. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah. And if you can think back to other times when you have learned new things, that can be a hint as to what is going to be helpful. So, you know, learn how you learn best, keep that in mind when you're learning a new job. Also, what is helpful is just being aware that your brain is working a lot harder while you are learning those new responsibilities. You know, you're trying to understand your information, you're trying to remember things that you're supposed to do, making mistakes. But getting things and all that sort of thing is perfectly normal. And because we do have the ADHD, we are working a lot harder to manage all that. So, um, a lot of that self-compassion needs to kick in as well. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, that's such a good point. The idea of doing all of these things and having all of these strategies, but keeping that self-compassion alongside it as much as possible, knowing that. Like you said, you're learning something. And even though leadership and taking on the leadership role can feel like a weird kind of learning, cause it feels good. You're learning in front of other people who are maybe from your perspective or not judging you, you know, you're learning in front of people. And now you're leading them and learning at the same time. It's a weird space and it's a space where it requires a lot of self-compassion alongside using your strategies. Was there anybody that you could talk to about this stuff? I know you could talk to Sarah a lot. Yeah. And I have been talking to her. I have spoken to my husband about it, but yeah, like mainly Sarah, she has been really helpful because she's been there literally so, yeah, definitely. She has been very understanding and helpful in the whole process of actually becoming a coach and also transitioning to the leadership role as well. Yeah, definitely. No, shout out to Sarah. She's great. And she wanted to be on this podcast interview today, but she wasn't able to make it. And I think that's the key as well as maybe figuring out do you have a mentor? We try and build mentors really intentionally into our organization because of that self-criticism aspect and because of the importance of having people to connect with. But as much as possible, yeah, figuring out, okay, I'm taking on this role. Is there anyone I could talk to? who has done this before, who can just kind of say, hey, it's okay, you're doing good. Because that is so helpful when you're taking on a leadership role because the imposter syndrome, it'll be there. It's still there. Every time we do something new, I'm still feeling it. Definitely. As well as being an ADHD head coach, you're also a coach. You're working with our clients as well. And I'd love to know what kind of strategies do you find a helpful for managing your ADHD? Cause obviously being a coach, you've had a lot of experiences with this. I rely on the Google calendar, but I overlay the work with my personal calendar. So I know that I'm not going to be fitting too many things in the one day. I have space in between things so I can transition easily into from one thing to another without rushing. general health and wellbeing stuff. So before any work day, I make sure I get proper sleep. And the morning of I eat a breakfast, that's not gonna sort of cause any brain fog or tiredness or anything like that. One of the things I do after I have a session with a client, I'll get that admin stuff done as soon as I can. So straight after if I can, I'll finish those coaching notes and send them off. Yeah. How do you do that? I have to admit, I struggle with that, getting those notes done. Do you set aside a time? I just do it straight after the session as much as I can because it's so much harder to come back into it. Yeah, definitely. And for those of you who are wondering what we're talking about, um, at the end of every ADHD coaching session, you receive notes within about two working days. We have a number of strategies to make that more ADHD friendly, but at the end of the day, you're still doing admin tasks. So definitely, definitely. Okay, cool. Yeah. Well, I want to just jump in and chat a little bit about some research that you're passionate about. But before that, just to round it out, is there anything else that you would recommend based on your, your clients' experiences or your experience as a head coach, the people who are in similar roles and looking for those ADHD strategies? Especially if you're working from home, just have really solid morning routines and also something we recommend our clients do. a get into focus routine, which can actually help sort of switch your brain from being in your home environment into that work mode. That is super helpful and usually essential because it can be tricky to get into that workspace when you're literally in your home space as well. Yeah, definitely. And I think when you're in your home space, sometimes the first step of that is that morning routine. You want to get some movement. you know, support the working memory, get outside if you can. And then yeah, that get in focus routine. It's just about figuring out what's going to get you to sit down. Exactly. But the other thing is to also manage that if you have any anxiety, I mean, people with ADHD tend to sort of feel anxiety a lot quicker and easier than the rest of the population in a lot of ways. So just have some good grounding exercises or deep breathing exercises. So if you. You know, you're feeling a little bit anxious before you begin just to sort of take a few moments to centre yourself and get those strategies to sort of calm down. And the other thing is working with people can be hard at times. We do often take on their energy. We tend to be quite empathetic and that can be draining at times depending on what you're talking about, how it resonates with you. So It's always good to give yourself time to have that space in between clients. And in that time to even go outside, walk around, do something that will actually ground yourself again. Yeah. Before you sort of take on that next person. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I totally agree. So Karen, I just have a few questions I like to ask at the end of every podcast. Tell me about a professional achievement. that you are the most proud of? Okay. Well, aside from becoming head coach with unconventional organization, the one that mainly stands out and it's not necessarily professional per se, but it's more the academic side of things where I did manage to achieve my degree and I did very well and I did it at the same time as sort of working the job that I had. I think that's the thing that I'm most proud of. Yeah, no, that's awesome. I did have a lot of things that I never finished and the fact that I finished it. Yeah. And I think a lot of people relate to that. The idea of having things that they never finished and just, you know, how difficult it can be, particularly when you're juggling multiple things, you know, like you said, having that second job. So that's awesome. What about your favorite dopamine activity? For those of you who are unfamiliar with the term, we know we talk about dopamine activities as being something that helps stimulate you, helps energize you when you're feeling like you're losing a bit of energy with ADHD. Um, and we talk about them all the time. So which one is your current favorite, Karen? Hmm. Well, of course in true ADHD fashion, I can't decide. So I'm going to say two or break the rules and I love podcasts. I will use a podcast. I don't enjoy cooking that much, but it's manageable with a podcast. I can actually stand there quite a while chopping up veggies, listening. So not a problem at all. And the other favorite is I do like a bit of a sing in the car. So I love to do that. And if you had an ADHD life motto and you don't have to pick one, what would it be? I would say my ADHD life motto would be just to embrace your strengths and your quirks. And consider that. as normal as anything else. Yeah. No, very, very true. Very, very true. I love that. Awesome. Well, it was really wonderful to talk to you today, Karen. Likewise. I appreciate you coming on for your first podcast. I know it's a bit nerve wracking doing these things. I was definitely nervous. I just had a bunch of people on who was my first podcast with them, and I was so nervous. So I really appreciate you. coming on and facing yet another fear, taking on the role. You've done amazing. And I'm so happy to have you as part of our organization. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure and yeah, thank you for pushing me to some of my limits. Yeah, yeah, no worries. Well, you've taken it on and you've done an amazing job. So yeah, thank you for taking the time to share your story and share all your ADHD skills with us. Where can people find out more about you and what you do? just go to the website and click on the information about the coaches, which is under Inc's services and pricing. And yeah, you can read up on all our bios. Yeah, definitely. So yeah, if you just go to www.unconventionalorganization.com, that's with a Z or an S for organization, you can find Meet the Coaches and you can find all about Karen and yeah. Book in to chat with Karen if you want to. Wonderful. Thank you so much, Karen. Thanks so much for coming on. 

Thanks for listening. If you'd like to reach out or connect with us, you can leave us a message at admin at unconventionalorganization.com. You can also find out more about our ADHD coaching organization, read our free articles, or sign up to our online courses at unconventionalorganization.com. That's organization with a Z or an S, they both will get you there. If you'd like to learn more about what we discussed here today or you want to read the transcript, you can find that at our show notes page at unconventionalorganization.com. If you've enjoyed this podcast and think someone else might find the strategies and stories helpful, the best thing you can do is share episodes using the share button in the podcast player, or leave a five-star review on Apple or Spotify or your podcast player of choice, letting them know why you've benefited from this podcast. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you back in the ADHD Lab next week.