Is ADHD a disorder? Interview with Simon Mundie

I remember being zoned out in this meeting and then zoning back in just as the instructor said, and as long as you don't forget that, you'll be fine. These are my strengths, these are my weaknesses, and I'm fine with that. The things that I am good at, I wouldn't have that without ADHD. When you hear of companies like Google and Tesla and MI5 actively seeking neurodiverse people because they think differently, how can that be a disorder? 

Today, I'm so happy to have the host of the Life Lessons podcast and the patron of the ADHD Foundation, Simon Mundie with us. Simon is a presenter on Radio 4's Flagship Today program and a TV reporter for the BBC at Wimbledon. He is also an in-demand speaker and event host as well as the author of his new book, Champion Thinking, How to Find Success Without Losing Yourself. So welcome, Simon. It is so great to have you on the podcast. Sky, thank you. That's a lovely welcome and it's a joy to be here. So you were diagnosed with ADHD relatively recently when one of your podcast listeners actually suggested that you should look into it. So take us through what that experience was like for you. Well, firstly, that listener wasn't the first person to suggest it. I remember an ex-girlfriend suggesting it about 10, 12 years ago, actually. But I didn't think much of it. And to be honest, I didn't know a huge amount. about ADHD beyond perhaps some of the stereotypes. But yeah, this listener got in touch during COVID and said, have you ever thought about getting tested? And they put me in touch with an organization that does objective testing. So being sat in a dark room for an hour, doing these weird tests that you can't cheat because I didn't really know what they were. It was like following a dot around. I can't really remember it, but I quite enjoyed it. I remember it was like a meditation. And then I got my results and I scored highly. All the indications were that I had ADHD fairly pronounced. And I didn't at the time think a huge amount about it, to be honest, until a friend of mine whose daughter goes to the same school as our daughter, he got tested for ADHD and it was this huge deal for him. He went through all of these different feelings and it really sort of turned his life upside down and I was like, why is it weird? Like that hasn't had the same effect. for me, but it obviously sowed a bit of a seed. And then fast forward month or so, and I got overwhelmed. I was working really hard. I got burnt out. I got overwhelmed. I had an emotional crash, which has been something that comes and goes throughout my life. And I'd mentioned this to my wife. And for some reason I went back to the ADHD thing. I showed this sort of checklist of ADHD things to my wife. And she was like, That's you. That is you. And that was the moment. Funnily enough, she often is the one who sort of spots these things. So that was a bit of a turning moment. And actually, I remember I was going to the dentist one day when I kind of realized, God, I've got ADHD and I looked more into it. I was researching more into it. I went through this, it really surprised me, this sort of period of a real emotional release. Grief. sadness, I was, I had to stop at a park bench and just like, weep essentially and cry. And I remember getting to the dentist and they were like, you okay? Like I got on really well with the, it's not going to be that bad. Exactly. God, I'd never thought of it that way. Yeah. Um, but yeah, it was, so I went through those feelings and then I looked far more into it. It had only been an objective test at that point. I got a subjective test, spent like four or five hours with a psychiatrist, obviously, and I've never spent time with a psychiatrist before going through family history, mental health, all sorts of stuff and yeah, and had it rubber stamped and then ever since then I've just been learning more and more. I've done a series about it, as you say, become patron of the ADHD foundation. And I'm hyper focusing on it, you could say, and I find it absolutely fascinating. And besides the birth of my daughter last year, it was the most. important thing for me in 2023 and so much looking back makes sense. Yeah. No, that's awesome. And congratulations on the birth of your daughter, by the way. I had my son last year. So lovely. Congratulations. Little baby's the same age. Well, you look very fresh faced considering. Are you getting your sleep? Yeah. Yeah, it just comes and goes. Yeah, exactly. Right. What would you say is the first time you really felt like you were getting for your ADHD because like a lot of people, you had that experience of you get it and it doesn't really do a whole lot. And then you realize, when do you feel like you really started to feel like you were actually getting supports that were working for you? The first and most important thing was just understanding actually. And as I said, I've done this podcast series all about ADHD. So learning those three core traits of inattention, hyperactivity and impulsivity. And looking back and going, Oh yeah. Okay. Impulsive. Sure. Like everyone who's ever known me, certainly I was always in trouble at school, never for bad stuff, but just for not having any control of my mouth. And, you know, when you were kind of at a boy's school at a certain age, you're actually kind of rewarded by your fellow pupils for that, certainly not by teachers, but that was very stress inducing. So the impulsivity I completely got. The inattention was interesting because obviously it's got two sides to it. And then again, this, I didn't know this. So the inattention. obviously is like the zoning out, but also the hyper-focus. Now Wimbledon tennis and tennis in particular has been my thing. So when I fell in love with tennis when I was a boy, I just hyper-focused to the eighth degree, I used to get home and I just used to read the results, literally just the scores. I know all the Wimbledon scores dating to like 1968, sort of Rain Man style really, right? And, uh, I just thought this was like a party trick and didn't think it was anything I don't want to say unusual. It's not unusual. I'm grateful for it, but, but on the flip side. I remember like being at stuff where if I wasn't interested, I'd just zone out. And so the first job I did before I got back into broadcasting, I just found it so boring that I could never focus. I remember once being on a video course. It was about learning how to film rather than be filmed. So I had no interest in it. And I remember being zoned out in this meeting and then zoning back in, just as the instructor said, and as long as you don't forget that you'll be fine. And so I was like, I missed this kind of key point. And then the hyperactivity one, I never understood that because I've never thought of myself as physically hyperactive, but someone's saying to me. Mentally hyperactive. Now that I really resonate with because, you know, I've had anxiety, I've had really bad insomnia in my life. And so when you say in terms of coping, I think I look back and actually it was this kind of understanding of the limitations I have, let's say with executive functioning as well, planning. you know, not being good at following instructions compared to my father, who's an engineer, very logical, A, B, C, D, E. I'm not like that at all. And so rather than thinking, oh, why am I so bad at this and feeling shame and embarrassment and like a failure in these areas, whilst recognizing that I do have strengths in these other areas, it's like, okay, no, these are my strengths, these are my weaknesses and I'm fine with that. Or I've certainly got more acceptance for that. So I think that kind of acceptance piece and understanding that's been the most important thing. And then. getting help, like I always used to hate it when my dad, who is so uber practical, would come and help me with stuff because I just felt so patronized and so like useless child, whereas I've spoken to him about it and now like he'll come and be like, do you want me to help you with that? And it's like, yeah, I do. I don't know how to get a toilet seat or whatever. And so, you know, a lot of the kind of friction and difficulty there is gone. So I think understanding and then communicating and sharing and then accepting it, but also. speaking in such a way that other people, even if they don't accept it, I accept it enough that it helps my interactions with them. Yeah. That's been the biggest thing. Yeah. No, definitely. That's so important. And it's interesting you mentioned sharing because it sounds like for you sharing, having ADHD wasn't really a question. Whereas for a lot of people, it's, it is something that they might still not have shared. Oh, a hundred percent. Yeah. I think there was a little bit of skepticism from. certain members of my family, not my wife or anything like that. But yeah, I think sharing's absolutely key. And that's why I'm very passionate going forward with, for example, the ADHD foundation about sharing it and talking about it, because I think the use of the word disorder is really out of date. It's obviously quite stigmatizing and I, I don't see it that way. I wouldn't have written this book. I wouldn't have done my broadcasting. The things that I am good at. I wouldn't have that without ADHD, which is just a trait. as far as I can see, I don't see it as a disorder. It might be a disorder in certain circumstances, but it's not a disorder in my view at all. I wouldn't change it. So yes, I think sharing it is obviously key. Support is really valuable. A lot of people sadly don't get it. And then normalizing it. And also I think even shining a light on the fact that neurodiversity, let's say, can be a real. asset in the 21st century, when you hear of companies like Google and Tesla and MI5 and blah, actively seeking neurodiverse people because they think differently. Well, then how can that be a disorder? It can be a real asset. And so I want to shout that from the rooftops, frankly. Which is amazing. And so happy to have you doing that. So what does a typical day in the life of Simon Mundie look like? Because you're wearing a lot of hats and I want to get to, before we talk systems, I want to talk. What does your day look like? My days are a mess right now, because similar to you, Sky, with a baby running around, and then we've got an eight-year-old as well who's having her own challenges adopting to having a baby running around and getting out of school. Life's hectic, but it's an interesting time because the book has taken up a lot of my attention over the last few years. So actually now looks quite different. My diary and days and weeks ahead are kind of opening up. in front of me in a way that they just haven't done. So if I was to say, what did my year look like last year? Well, this time last year, I remember I was in the editing process of the book, believe it or not, the final stretch, such a long process working for a big publisher. Oh yeah. And, uh, and so I would get up and I would go to David Lloyd club, just about half an hour walk. I'd go there. I'd work for three hours in the morning. I'll quickly tell you an ADHD thing that I did that I didn't even realize I was doing, I'd always go and sit in the corner. And I would put my earplugs in, turn my phone off. I've got one of those phone lock cases, so I can't get near it and work and get in flow that way, just completely cut off distractions. And then I would go for a swim and a sauna or a steam room. And what I'd find is when I did that, when I came back to work, my brain, you know, first of all, I'd get that dopamine, right, which was so valuable and I'd feel great. And second of all, that's where creativity would come when I'm not working on the project. I'd be working on it. getting frustrated, then I would stop and do exercise or whatever. And then I'd come back and often the answers were there. So that was last year. It was quite, it was quite structured. I quite liked it actually. Now, you know, the books just gone out and so it's about making the most of that. I'm arranging talks, doing podcasts, writing articles as well. Still doing my podcast, my newsletter, building that up, podcasts that I still produce for other people. broadcasting as and when, but it's kind of cool, Sky, because actually I've got a lot of open road ahead of me, so I can kind of mold it. Yeah. And go with the flow. I think going with the flow is important. Yeah, you can build your new life, what we want it to be post, I've never written a book like that, but I've written a master's thesis, so I can understand that sort of monastic structure that you can get into. And it is interesting with the exercise, you know, we... talk about sometimes the research behind ADHD and movement and exercise and the benefits you can get from just having that break to put your working memory back online, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. So important. I mean, I actually, cause I was sat down for so long during the book, I hurt my back and I've actually now got a bit of sciatica as a result, although I found a guy who's brilliant at sorting me out. But so I've been somewhat limited in. I haven't been able to go for a run for a while and do the exercise that I would have done back in the day just as a given. And yeah, I missed it. I do Tai Chi and those kinds of things were quite grounding, but that kind of really get a sweat up and when you do the exercise where you come back and half an hour later, you know, you just feel like a new person. I haven't actually been able to do that for a little while now and yeah, I miss it. But it's such a valuable tool for anyone, but particularly I think for people with ADHD and stuff like that. Yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, you had... Peter Shankman on one of your podcasts talking about ADHD and he very famously jumps out of planes. Yeah. And jumps out of bed and straight onto the Peloton for an hour. Like, amazing. I still think about him when I go for a walk. I'm like going for a walk to get a coffee. I'm like, it's about the same thing. I know, right? He's extreme. Bless him, mate. So your new book has some really interesting ideas around what sports can teach us about life, in particular, the idea of. not fixating on results, but instead appreciating those intrinsic rewards. We've actually recently discussed some ADHD research that found being motivated by a mastery goal rather than achievement goals associated with greater academic success, which is not the only marker of success by any means, but that's what they found for those with high ADHD symptoms. So this is a very interesting topic to discuss with ADHD as well as, as without it. So. Can you give us a quick overview of what you cover in the book that might be interesting for our ADHD listeners? Well, first of all, I want to say that since having my ADHD diagnosis, it's given me an insight into perhaps thinking differently. And I don't think I perhaps would have approached the book in the way that I have without my ADHD brain. Because I suspected that. Because I think I've been doing my podcast. I don't sit on the BBC in 2018. took ownership of it early in COVID, whenever that was. And I get sent a lot of books for people wanting to come on the pod. And a lot of them, because sports been a big thing, certainly in the early days, a lot of them are around sport and success. So if I had to sum up a sort of archetypal title, it would be 10 steps to success. And that begs the question for me, like, why do you want success? Because... Whether in sport or life, like culturally, there's this idea that success is about achievement, approval, attainment. So that might be promotion, a lot of money, but in sport, it might be a trophy, a world cup win, an Olympic gold, that kind of thing. And it's like, okay, that's what we should be aspiring to. But actually I've spoken to so many people who have reached the top of that mountain only to find it unfulfilling and even empty. And I think that's very revealing. You know, we can obviously think of lots of famous people who have been lauded the world over and be miserable. But if you look at sport, I think it's a really good example is around flow. When you're in flow, then it's intrinsically enjoyable. You can't not enjoy being in flow. Like that's one of its key traits. And so I wanted to explore like why is flow enjoyable and success, not necessarily. So. And to me, there's a lot of focus in the States, but also in the UK, right? You know, it's all about winning. It's all about success when it comes to sport. But actually for me, no, the beauty of sport is flow is watching someone in flow. Being in flow yourself, et cetera, et cetera. And sport is just one place where you can experience flow quite obviously. But the key thing about flow is that when you're in flow, you're not thinking about the past, you're not thinking about the future, so your thoughts drop away. And if you're not thinking about the past or the future, so does your sense of self drop away. because we have this idea of who we are based on what's happened in the past and our hopes for the future. If that goes, then basically we're completely present. And when we're completely present, that sense of self drops away. We love it when that happens, right? We love it when that happens. That's why we like losing ourself in sport, in music, in conversation, in dance, in art, in cooking, whatever it may be, there are so many portals into it. And so I think it points to quite an interesting thing is, Here's a philosophical statement I would add, which is, you know, we think we want to become a somebody, right? But when we become a somebody, frequently it's underwhelming. But actually we love the experience of being nobody on that level of concepts and stuff like that. I think ADHD people are actually quite fortunate because if you can find that thing that you can hyper focus on, that's a great portal into this. You know, I know for me, if I think back to my career, actually the ADHD gave me an insight into my career choices a lot more. But, you know, we're broadcasting with live broadcasting, tight pressure, deadlines. But for me, as I said, like Wimbledon was my mecca, my spiritual home, should we say. So would you say Wimbledon was your hyper focus? Oh yeah. Yeah. Certainly growing up. Like my mom used to buy me the Wimbledon videos, the highlights. So this was in the time before, you know, you could watch whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted to watch before YouTube. And I just watched these videos again and again and again to the point. I knew every point. Honestly, it was insane. So when I got to work at Wimbledon, if I'm doing interviews or commentating on a match, I'm in that hyper-focused zone. And then on top of that, you know, I love talking. I've always been a talker and I hate, for example, I don't like emails and messages and stuff like that. I just, I'm a voice notes person. Yes. Okay. There we go. I found out that this is a bit more of an ADHD. I remember reading an article about an ADHD guy who's like entrepreneur who'd made all this money because he was like that, because we're in obviously in a world now of messages and stuff. It's like, if someone's got a number, I'll just ring him. Cause otherwise I just, I don't know all the kind of. the pleasant freeze. Putting it into the space. Yeah. And like, you know, and dear and you're, you know, like what? And I miss, I miss reading and stuff. So I just like ringing people. So when it comes to my podcast or even podcast, I just love talking. And so for me, that's another portal into flow. And so I think that if you can find things with ADHD that enables you to hyper focus, then that's a real gift. It can be a challenge to find it because then if you can find ways to build a career or build life around that includes these things. We can't do it all the time, of course, but that's a ticket to happiness and selflessness and, and you can think deeper into the kind of philosophical side, which is perhaps my ADHD brain again, because I'm now hyper focused on, on the, uh, the philosophical implications of self disappearing, but we don't need to go down that route, but I think ADHD and flow and this way of looking at the world can be a real gift, but then it can be a challenge when we have to do those things that are like. Yeah, I was going to ask you, do you have any strategies for those things? Because hyperfocus is a loaded term with ADHD because we definitely have that connection with flow and there's people, I'm very lucky myself, I get to do what I'm hyper focused on as well. So I really appreciate that. But for a lot of people, there's that feeling of like, yeah, hyperfocus. Like that thing I was doing last night that's kept me up until 4 AM and I wasn't supposed to, do you have any strategies for dealing with being like, in the wrong hyper focus because you read a book, so you will definitely have experiences. Yeah, you know what, I'm fortunate I'm not someone who like has games console or anything like that keeps you up to four. But like anyone, I think I think the most obvious one for me is my phone is scrolling. As a journalist, I was a bit of a news junkie. And, you know, I can just disappear down those holes really, really rapidly. But so the best purchase I bought in the last couple of years I bought a mobile phone locking case and honestly buy one. It's such a good idea because smartphones, they are designed to be like slot machines. They're designed to capture your attention. I interviewed Johann Hari of the book Stolen Focus. And you know, it's like, you can fight against this and some days you might win, but you're not going to win all the time because this is, there's a lot of like clever technology and insight I've gone into. Yeah. So the thing. to do is just to put in those barriers to entry. So I'll just put my phone in there quickly, you know, two hours, boom. I can't get near it for two hours. Fantastic. There we go. And then I'll go and do this. And it's actually a relief when I do that. It's a bit like the same, right, with food. I'll give you an example, right? So at Christmas, my wife is like this Christmas fanatic. Yeah, she's a real like, don't get me wrong, I like Christmas, but you know, for her, it's still like so magical and all this stuff. Cause her dad used to do these wonderful things for her. And one of the things was putting chocolate pennies all the way down stairs. as if like Santa's left the chocolate pennies, right? Which means every Christmas, she gets loads of chocolate pennies. Now, I'm the last person in our house to buy chocolate, but I'm the first person to eat it en masse. Yeah, I was like, I think I could see where this is going, I can imagine. So if we have like, or if someone buys chocolate or anything like that, I will scoff it down really badly. So my philosophy is just don't have it. I was looking for something sweet early, the only thing we've got dates, great. dates healthy. And so I'm pretty good at like healthy living, but if I have the things that are unhealthy and they're easy to get to, then all bets are off. So I just try and put in those kind of barriers to entry and that mobile phone locking case is a really big one. Yeah. So just not letting yourself be in a position to have to decide between two options. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one. I mean, I've done a few other things as well. Actually after speaking to Peter Shankman, I bought a load of black t-shirts and black socks. So I reduced choice. Yeah, I mean, there are various little things, but at the end of the day, that mobile phone locking case is a big one. Yeah. Definitely. 

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And I was curious as well because, you know, you talk about in your book this idea around growth mindset and action and this idea of being focused on musts. And, you know, with ADHD, we know we struggle with self criticism more and we have RSD and we have all this kind of thing. And I was curious what your connection between this idea of musts and self criticism ADHD was. Yeah. It's an important issue, isn't it? One of my go-to sayings is you're not your thoughts. You're aware of your thoughts. So that. stands me in quite good stead because so whatever my mind is saying, I'm able to know that it's not fact. I can take it with a pinch of salt, but that doesn't mean that being woken up at 3 a.m. with a barrage of you should have done this. Oh my God, this is going to happen. That isn't really hard. Even if I know it's not definitively true. So the three musts are, these were identified by Albert Ellis, very famous and influential psychologist. I'm sure you know him. Yeah, I think I do. Yeah. Yeah, basically he came up with R-E-B-T, which is the precursor to CBT. So it's I must do well, you must treat me well and the world must be easy. And so I think the first one, actually, no, let's say the first two, are two important ones. So I must do well, let's say with the book. And by the way, this isn't what I'm going through right now, but certainly previously it's like, there's that element of perfectionism in there that can become quite debilitating and puts you in sort of freeze mode. And so I have experienced that, but then the other one, like you said, RSD, that's been a big one for me. As I mentioned to you before about my father, so my father and I, it's almost like we're two ends of the spectrum, if you want to put it that way. And so he was an engineer and just very methodical, very practical. He wouldn't think about things in the way that I have and do. And, you know, I've obviously gone down the broad costume route, very different from engineering. And so I would say he's not an expressive man. And I found that very hard, you know, I think for a long time, I wanted my, still do to a degree, but I've understood it's not personal now. One of my dad's approval and that kind of thing. But I think understanding him and that that's not the way he works and therefore letting go of that, letting go of the kind of expectation or he should be like this, which is that kind of, you must treat me well. or in this case, you must treat me how in this way that I feel like I need. Letting go of that has been very freeing because I found that very hard, but yeah, certainly that RSD has been a big part of my life, particularly with my dad. Yeah. A lot of time around wanting his approval, but I talk in the book a lot about the difference between the aware mind and the thinking mind. So the part that's aware rather than the thinking. And so more I'm able to. identify for want of a better word with the aware part of me, then when those feelings come up, they can be there and I don't have to try and get rid of them or resist them. They'll come up and it's like, okay, that's fine. I think as Rumi, the philosopher from way back when, the Sufi writer said, when the malice, the rage, the shame, greet them at the door like welcome visitors. That's very poorly paraphrased, but it's like that. Strong feelings come up. Now, instead of being like, this is wrong, this shouldn't be happening. It's like, no, it's, it's fine. Welcome them. Everything will pass. Yeah. It is interesting to know that you've experienced RSD because, I mean, a lot of people do, it's one of those things that hopefully will very soon be recognized as part of ADHD, but I imagine your job involves a lot of knocking on doors, but a lot of, you know, chatting to people. Yeah. You mentioned your dad and that makes a lot of sense. And again, I know a lot of people will relate to that. So I appreciate you sharing it. Do you have any ideas around kind of those people who are like, I couldn't possibly talk to this person, I couldn't possibly reach out because I imagine you had to do that a lot. Oh yeah. Of course. And in fact, funny, you say that. So I really got into post-it notes because I read about how that could be useful for ADHD rather than having loads of different lists. So I've got like big post-it notes. My wife bought me a load of big post-it notes. and then smaller post-it notes. And I've got a big post-it note that I've stuck on the door downstairs and it says on it, burn the boats in 2024. Now what I mean by that is that attitude of, if I think, oh, I should reach out to this person or not. And obviously the mind might go, oh, don't, it'll be awkward. He doesn't wanna hear from you. You're not gonna get anywhere. I'll look at that and I'm like, okay, just do it. And I've been quite fortunate in that I've done a few things in my life where I've put myself in positions that have been. pretty excruciating and awkward. I was a charity fundraiser very early in my career and that is a brutal job. You know, you're getting rejected relentlessly, but actually, you know, you quickly learn that rejection stings, but then it passes, just like any feeling. And then also I've put myself in that position intentionally at a few other times in my life. And so it's called exposure therapy. And I just think, yeah, like. you've just got to throw yourself into it and not listen to the voice in your head, urging you to stay small. And I was quite fortunate as well in that it helps when you've got evidence to back this up. And when I was at the BBC, so I was full time at the BBC for eight years and BBC is quite a big bureaucratic organization. And perhaps because of my ADHD and the fact that, you know, I could be a bit gobby and a bit mardy sometimes. I was never been like the ideal company man. So I didn't really apply for stuff and just felt a bit stuck. And then in 2017, I had again this idea of I'm not really going anywhere, so I'm gonna adopt the statute of burn the boat. So I'm either gonna annoy people enough that I basically get kicked out of the organization or I'm gonna get where I wanna go. And how I'm gonna do that is I'm gonna go straight to the top and my goal was to do TV at Wimbledon. I was being doing radio at Wimbledon for years, but my goal was to do TV at Wimbledon. And so literally for a year, between the end of Wimbledon 2017 and the start of Wimbledon 2018, I was emailing and getting in touch with the head of BBC TV Sport, trying to set up meetings. I've got ideas for Wimbledon next year and da da. Each time, like, he doesn't want to hear from me. You know? This is so, but I would do it anyway. And he would come back each time and say, yeah, okay, great, we can have this meeting. And then I'll sort of turn to my wife and go, look, I've said, I've got this idea. You've got to help me come up with an idea now. Because she's good at that. So I did this, okay, and the irony was, I got the job, but only on the last day. I turned up to Wimbledon on day one, 2018. So they still hadn't told me, I was there doing radio. They still hadn't told me if they'd try me out on TV. So I rocked up to the production studio with two ice creams, one for the main boss and one for his number two. And they were like, okay, fine, go on, in you go, right? So I did that. But what was interesting was, it was that year, that attitude of burn the boats. It bled into other areas of my life. And so I just started talking to bosses kind of openly and came up with some ideas. And that's what led to my podcast, which then that led to my book. So it was that attitude of burn the boat created opportunity. And I thought it was about Wimbledon and it was, but actually it led to, ultimately led to this book here. Yeah. So I've got this kind of evidence in my head that this burn the boat's attitude works. And so obviously with the book out now. I'm back there. That's why I put that up there. So whenever I have this kind of should, I shouldn't, I look at it and go, I'm just sort of, I'll do it. Yeah. I really love that. I think it's so important because I get this question all the time. People think that you get shoulder tapped for everything, you know, that you must just sit there and then eventually you get shoulder tapped and you just have to wait and hope and, and that's from what I've heard and talking to people, that is not how it happens at all. Completely agree. I think that's so important. Yes. Creating stuff. You've got to create stuff. And. there's a big risk in not taking a risk, I think is a really important thing to keep in mind. And I think if you really wanna put things in perspective, then come back to the undeniable fact that eventually we're gonna die, right? And therefore, and I, sorry, I don't mean to be morbid. I don't wanna be morbid, right? And we don't know when that will be. And so, you know, a little bit of rejection is actually no bad thing. Obviously we feel it more. And for me, as I said with my dad or. let's say intimate relationships, that's perhaps been a bit more pronounced, but in those kind of ways, the only way you're gonna get through it is by doing it and realizing that it won't kill you. And that in the big scheme of things, some uncomfortable sensations and some doubting thoughts are fine. Like the more you can get uncomfortable with uncomfortable thoughts, the more you fly. Yeah, send the email and then go for a walk, grab an ice cream. Yes. Do you know what is funny? You say that. That's, you're so right, right? I send a text or an email. And now I'll actually like turn my computer off and phone off so I don't have to deal with like, that's so true. Awesome. Well, we just have a few questions. We ask everyone on this podcast. Tell us about one professional achievement that you're proud of most. Well, as I said, Wimbledon was my thing growing up. So tennis was my thing growing up. And I studied broadcast journalism at university. So I assumed that I would get into broadcasting. But then I, when I left university, I went traveling and long story short, I ended up kind of going off on a tangent. I did sales for a tennis magazine. So it was like kind of half, but at that point, you know, I was a long way from broadcasting that kind of thing that I wanted to do. And so it was fun because there were a lot of young people. It was part of the lawn tennis association. So it was like this big governing body. We had tennis courts and we would go out. It was like being back. at school or university, everyone was playing sport at lunch. Very sociable. But the work was deeply unsatisfying. As I said, there was no way I could get in. I was so distracted because it was just boring, so boring. So days were like torturous really. And after two or three years, I just got the sense of what am I doing? I'm wasting my time, time's starting to go. And I happened to do a live report. for the tennis magazines, they used to get me to speak on behalf of the magazine, for I think it was Radio Wimbledon. And anyway, long story short, they said, oh, look, you're quite good, if you're not considered this. And then at that point, it was like this slap in the face of like, what am I doing? Like, this is what I trained in, this is what I wanted to do, I've got to get back into it. Three, four years had passed since I'd left uni at this point. And so I rang someone who worked in radio, he said, oh, there's this little station that takes people on. I rang the little station, I said, have you got any jobs? They said, yes, we've got this thing, we can't pay you, but it's on a Saturday afternoon, you can do a news and sports show. So I did that for a year alongside this other job, just as a way to try and get back into broadcasting. At the end of that year, I started applying for jobs, got a little job at a little radio station, massive pay cut, but when I got the job, I was like, honestly, I can still remember it, like this sense of, ah, I always say it's like having your ladder up against the right wall. I was really like, ah. God, right, I'm back doing something that gives me probably the dopamine, right? Yeah. But the thing was it was radio Wimbledon and I'd applied and spoken to the guy who ran it at the time. And I think the guy who'd been the reporter the year before wasn't going to be there for a week and a bit. So he said, look, he'd heard me do that interview. He knew I had some more experience. He said, you can come and be a morning reporter. So work on the breakfast show. And I will never forget day one. I got there at like. 6 a.m. or something stupid. And so obviously there's no one in the grounds apart from people broadcast. And I remember I went and I sat up on Henman Hill, the big hill, and looking out, it was like Christmas morning, no one around. And I sat there and I was like, I can't believe I'm about to go and broadcast on my favorite tournament. It was like this. Eureka moment. And I've had a few since like when I did TV, I remember when I did my first film before the men's final again, I was sat there with like a little tear going down my eyes, like the 10 year old me would have chopped off half my arm for this opportunity. But that first time, I will never forget that feeling of Oh my god, I can't believe I've managed to maneuver back from doing something that was unsatisfying to being sat here. And I just had such a good time. Yeah, but and I definitely I'll never top that feeling. That was unreal. Yeah, no, that's awesome. That's awesome. Yeah. On the flip side, is there a professional failure that you've had that embarrassed you and how did you deal with that? Gosh, honestly, right? So as a broadcaster for Radio One, I was not known as the most polished. So like my attention to detail, my propensity to make silly mistakes was, yeah, was high relative to some of my, some of my peers. And there were a couple. So the worst one for me was probably. football tournament, Euro 2012, being played actually in Ukraine, which is mad to think, been played in Ukraine and Poland. And about six months, maybe less, four months or so before the tournament, they did the draw. And obviously everyone who's listening, the majority of people are listening out for who England can play. It's kind of hard to explain the story. But I went into the studio and the TVs were all on, but it's, they've got the sound off. Yeah. And I saw they're in doing this draw and they're pulling balls out of the hat. Anyway, and it flashed up at the bottom. It said England, Germany, Italy, someone else. So I'm like, okay, that must be who's in England's draw. Yeah. So I get on air and they're like, Simon's here with an update on, you know, who England might be facing at Euro 2012. And I'm like, yeah, listen, it's not good news. We're facing the old enemy, Germany. Obviously we've beat them in the 1966 World Cup final, lost to them in 70 and all this stuff went on thinking, I'm doing a really good job here in Italy. Anyway, walk out the studio. the editor comes running out and the other studio guy goes, you've just messed it up. It's wrong, it's wrong. Oh my God. And this, thank God this was in the days for social media had really taken off. So we used to really check the texts. And honestly, the texts were coming in like, I've just nearly crashed my car. That guy needs to be fired. That like just. Oh no. Like, yeah. So then I had to go back in the studio and like, apologies. Yeah, it turns out. those are the people who we were in the hat with, so who we couldn't play with, if you know what I mean. And actually, they were the teams we couldn't face, not that we were gonna face. But I remember, by complete fluke, they had booked a week's holiday off the next week. But honestly, I left just like an absolute shell of a man, like feeling like, oh my God, I've just ruined my whole life, my whole career, how could I make such a stupid mistake? And I'd be at home like three days later, and it was suddenly popping in my head now, I'd be like, oh my God. I can't believe I did that. So that was pretty bad. Yeah, that was a tough moment. You know, millions of people listening and yeah. But there've been a few like that to be quite honest. To be honest, there's been a few. Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing because I think a lot of times when you've done, you know, you've written a book about, you know, all this kind of stuff, people get a bit like, oh, these people are, you know, so separated. And I think those questions can kind of help to be like, no, RSD. Messing up. It's the same. Trust me. I've got a list of mess ups and RSD examples as long as my arm. So yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Do you have anything else that you wanted to say? And we often ask if you have an ADHD life motto, what would it be? And it could just be one of your many. Cause I can imagine. Well, I think the key thing is just, I'm no fan of the word disorder. As I said to you, I think ADHD is a trait. And I think. As. I spoke to Dr. Tony Lloyd from the ADHD Foundation. As he said, it's context dependent. But whilst it has given me some definite challenges, emotional, overwhelm, burnout, insecurity, it put me on a long quest of feeling a bit broken and trying to get to the bottom of that. But I'm actually really glad now that I went on that because it gave me a lot of insights and... You know, and I think the sensitivity of RSD can be a real strength, you know, in terms of having empathy for other people and that kind of thing. I would just come back to it's not a disorder. You know, it needs empathy and understanding and sensitivity and acceptance, first and foremost, but I just don't see it as something that's bad. It's a trait and I wouldn't change it. You know, yes, I'm glad I know more about it so I can manage it better. And my wife. You know, understands me more. But no, I wouldn't change it. It's given me, I think it's been a driver to a lot of the interesting things I've done, broadcasting, you know, this book, talks, all this kind of stuff. So yeah, I think embrace it and forget the day of disorder. Wonderful, wonderful. Well, thanks so much for coming on and talking about your ADHD and about your book. Tell people where they can find you, where they can find out about your book. Sure. My book is called Champion Thinking, How to Find Success Without Losing Yourself. It's published by Bloomsbury. You can obviously get it on Amazon and various British bookshops, but Amazon's a good place to start. And it features, I've got the story of when I went to Caitlyn Jenner's house in Malibu, which was interesting. Lots of things around flow and just really trying to. take those lessons from sport, not just in terms of winning and success, but actually more, you know, what is a life well lived. Or you can go to my website, so simonmundie.com, and you can order the book there, but there's loads of stuff there. Sign up for my newsletter. And then my podcast is The Life Lessons Podcast, where I did max out on sports people, but now I've been fortunate enough to speak to just so many interesting people about, again, you know, the big questions like. Life and how to live it. That's the essence of it. And if you want me to come and do a talk, I'm well up for it. I love doing talks. Yeah, we're burning boats in 2024. Burning boats. Burn the boats in 2024. Let's do it. Wonderful. Awesome. Thanks so much, Simon. Pleasure. Thank you, Sky. 

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