ADHD, Autism and Neurodivergent Parenting with Danielle Sullivan

Skye: Hi. We are the ADHD Skills Lab Podcast. My name is Skye.

Sarah: And my name is Sarah.

Skye: And we will be your hosts chatting to you about practical ADHD strategies you can use, the research behind some of these strategies, as well as interviewing other professionals with ADHD about how they've developed skills in working through struggles in their lives.

Sarah: You might know us from Unconventional Organisation, where we talk about this kind of stuff all day long. So we're super excited to have you along, and we're going to chat through it together.

Skye: Well, today we are joined by the wonderful Danielle Sullivan. Danielle is the owner and founder of Neurodiverging Coaching and the host of the Neurodiverging Podcast. They're a certified life coach and have an M.A. degree, graduate certificate in Women and Gender Studies. Danielle had intended to remain in academia, which I totally relate to, to work on gender, disability and religion, but pivoted after she was diagnosed autistic around age 30, after her eldest child was also diagnosed. So welcome, Danielle. It's great to have you here and really great to see you again.

Danielle: Thanks so much, Skye. I'm really glad to be here. Thanks for having me on.

Skye: No worries. No worries at all. Yeah. So tell me a little bit, I guess, first of all, tell me where you are coming from in the world.

Danielle: Sure. So I'm actually in Colorado, in the United States, if you mean geographically. If you mean neurotypically, I'm an autistic ADHDer.

Skye: Yeah, well, both of those are really important. So thanks. Yeah, and one of the things that we really wanted to talk to you about because obviously Sarah and I have ADHD and we're an ADHD focused podcast, but we have a lot of people who have combined type ADHD and ASD and really wanted to get your understanding of that experience. So can you tell me a little bit about that? Because I know you will have worked with people who have combined type ADHD and ASD. How is it diagnosed? What does that look like?

Danielle: So speaking again as an American, because our system is different than lots of other countries systems, but it's really common, as I'm sure you guys know, to see ADHD be comorbid with autism or vice versa. And a lot of people are diagnosed with one and then later are kind of like, oh, actually also this and that's kind of what happened to me. So I'm a late identified autistic. I was diagnosed after my children were diagnosed and I learned more about what autism could look like. And it was like, oh, that's me. And then a couple of years after that, as I learned more about ADHD and how it is comorbid with autism in a lot of cases, I realized like, oh, that's actually also me, and went and got tested for that. In a lot of cases, it's somebody's diagnosed with one thing first, and then there are traits or symptoms or difficulties that don't seem to fit with the original diagnosis. And so the way it's diagnosed in the United States, ADHD is much easier to access a diagnosis for than autism is. Especially as an adult, I'll just speak as an adult, you can usually just go to your primary care physician, your family doctor, and do the little survey and be diagnosed kind of on the spot. You can also go do a full neuropsychological evaluation like you would do for an autism spectrum disorder diagnosis. And that's fine too. It kind of just depends what concerns you have and where you're coming from and what kind of supports you might need.

Skye: Yeah, I think that's a really good point. And something that is not necessarily discussed, particularly, like you said with adult ASD, is that it is tricky to diagnose. I mean, it's tricky to diagnose ADHD. There's a long waiting list for it. And then also even just knowing that you have it. I guess my question for you is, what was that diagnostic process like for you getting diagnosed with ASD? How long did it take? People are always interested to know who did you go see and how did you access that?

Danielle: Sure. So I was self diagnosed for a long time because, as you said, especially, again in my area, my area is actually really well known for being kind of autism friendly and for having a lot of support in place, but again, mostly for kids and teens. And so finding practitioners who are familiar with what autism looks like in adults and also what autism looks like in women type adults is really hard, and especially for somebody—I'm late identified, not because I didn't need support, but because I masked very highly and wiped myself out really, trying to match what I viewed to be the neurotypical norms. Right? And so finding a practitioner who can see, like, through your masking efforts, because it's not always easy for us to sort of let that go and really show when we've been doing it for 30 years can be really challenging. So I self identified for a long time, and really, when I started coaching more, I was like, I should kind of know what my neurotype is so that I can be transparent and coaching effectively as either a neurodivergent person or not. And so I went and got identified, and I worked through a neuropsych in my area. For other folks who are looking, I always recommend asking, if you can find other autistic people in your community, talk to them, because there are a lot of practitioners who say that they know what adult autism looks like, or what autism in women and girls looks like. And in my experience, they often don't and can do more harm by misdiagnosing. A lot of us get misdiagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, depression, postpartum depression, like, all sorts of other things. Bipolar disorder, I've heard, like, all sorts of other things that aren't autism, even though we are, in fact, autistic. And so it can be really important to educate yourself, talk to other people before you get diagnosed, and just make sure it's something you really want to pursue. And don't be afraid to get a second opinion, too, if what you get back isn't—it doesn't feel right. Be open minded to your practitioner. They've been trained, they know things, but there can still be mismatches.

Skye: Yeah, that's such a great point, and I think it does kind of lead into something that I did also want to ask you. I've definitely done the ASD test before, and I found it very interesting, the diagnosis process. And what do you think about how well it picks up on adults and particularly people who identify as women? Like, what are their experiences of that? Because having that experience of going through the diagnostic process, it is interesting to see the historical way it's framed and the transitions. And I know that there are a lot of discussions around that, so I'd really be interested to get your perspective.

Danielle: So there's a couple of different diagnostics, as far as I'm aware. So I don't do—I'm a coach, so I'm not a medical practitioner, so I don't diagnose people.

Skye: None of us are medical practitioners, here today.

Danielle: Just for my awareness. I just want to like, that's where I'm speaking from. There's a couple of different diagnostics that can be used, and most of the neuropsychs in my area, anyway, will use a combination of them, because we know that some of them catch certain kinds of people better than other kinds of people, and vice versa. And so I think most of them are pretty good at catching people with pretty high support needs, or even kind of medium support needs. I have significant support needs, but they're bigger on some days than on other days. And so they vary a lot, I guess. And those of us who have this kind of like a roller coaster, I guess, of high support, low support, high support, low support. They're not always good at catching us, because if we go into the diagnosis on a high energy day when we're organized, our nervous system is regulated, we're well slept, we're well fed, we're like with it. We might present kind of neurotypically because we mask so highly, and it's really hard to show people that you don't feel safe with behavior that you've been judged for in the past, that you've been stigmatized for in the past. And so a lot of the diagnostics that are available aren't really great at catching that kind of behavior. And also, there's just so many different presentations of autism, and I think people are becoming more educated about that. But we have sort of good knowledge about a lot of the stereotypical male presentations of autism, and some women present that way, but a lot of us don't. And we're only starting to just get research, really, around what women's autism looks like. Gender's a lie and all that stuff, but there are, like, trends, right, in different populations. And so we're just getting to that research. A lot of professionals aren't familiar with that research. And also, white women present differently than black women, than Hispanic women. And so we don't have good diagnostics for those folks because we don't have good research on those folks. And, until we get that going, we can't really—so a lot of us are missed.

Skye: Yeah, I remember, there was a quote that I remember reading a long time ago, which was, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism.

Danielle: Absolutely true. Yeah. Because there are traits in common, but the way those present, hugely variable.

Skye: Yeah, definitely. So I guess to go from that idea of complexity into maybe a bit more of a generalized understanding, one of the things that often our clients want to know is how do you manage combined ASD and ADHD at work? We have some strategies to support ADHD at work, but what if you have a combined diagnosis? How is that going to make things a bit different? And how is that going to be, in terms of what to communicate to people about what your needs are?

Danielle: I have a lot of clients also, who have exceptional difficulty in the work environment, in all kinds of work environments, not necessarily from people being stereotyping or stigmatizing on purpose, but there are ideas about work should look like this. And when we need to work differently, a lot of times we're sort of shamed for that, or told, like, well, why can't you just do it the normal way? And so what we do in our practice is really look at there are some traits in ADHD and autism that overlap, and there are some that are for me, I'll speak for me, right? I can have these very high sociable moods where I really want to talk to a lot of people. And I'm very chatterboxy, and I'm like ahh people, it's exciting. And I get a lot of energy from that. And that's kind of I think of it as, like, the ADHD side. And then I go through weeks where I'm just like, I want to be in my room and I want to read my book, and I want to be very focused on hyper fixate on certain tasks that I have to do, or certain work things that I have to do. I don't want to talk to anybody. And those are both me. They're both authentic. But again, the presentation is very different depending on just where my energy is and what's going on for me that day. A lot of times when I look with a client at their work environment or what's going on for them at work, we also have to kind of think about, well, who are you on different days? What kind of traits pop out in different circumstances? And also, what are your triggers at work? So, for autistics, common triggers can be sensory. So lights, sound, vibrations, tactile stuff, the clicking of the keyboard, it clicks the wrong way, my chair makes this terrible squeak, I'm right next to the air conditioner, all those kinds of things, which maybe some neurotypicals could sort of filter out. But our sensory systems work differently. We can't always filter those things. So sometimes thinking creatively about, well, should we have ear protection at work? Can we wear sunglasses inside? Can we move next to a window and get the natural light instead of the fluorescent light? So thinking about sensory systems, and then communication is another big one for work. So a lot of us, we can sort of mask and look neurotypical for a period of time, and then as we get comfortable, we start to unmask and not work so hard to communicate neurotypically, which is good for us, but means that we'll come across as like, too honest, too blunt, too confrontational, right? Like aggressive. And we're not really actually aggressive in any way, but our style of speaking can be very direct. And neurotypicals say they like direct, honest transparency, but they usually don't in the work context. And so we'll get sort of stigmatized as being a difficult person to work with, and that makes communication even harder. And so we end up working with a lot of communication strategies, like, how can we ask for things in writing instead of being spoken to? How can we reduce meetings so that we're not so tired, so we're able to sort of control what we say a little bit better because we're not talking so much. And also just educating employees as is reasonable if we're out, if we're out as autistic at work, which many of us is not safe to do. But if we can be, educating the workplace or asking H and R to bring in diversity and equity training or something like that can be a huge step forward too. And just telling people, like, I'm not trying to get special privileges, sometimes talking to the boss about like, what if we just let everybody decide to wear sunglasses at work? Like, what would be the harm in giving people that autonomy?

Skye: It'll look much cooler.

Danielle: Yeah, right? Everybody will look—it'll be the coolest workplace. Sometimes it's convincing the management that giving employees more autonomy over their own sensory environment can produce better work for the whole company. Right? And it's not necessarily about giving this employee special privileges.

Skye: Yeah, you're so right. I mean, that is the thing that I've had to discuss a lot with workplaces when talking, is about just opening up the complexity of the experience to everybody. Because like you said, maybe other people have other sensitivities and they also want headphones or to wear sunglasses for other reasons that they might not have been diagnosed for yet, or they don't understand, or maybe they just like it. It's cool. They don't have to talk to as many people.

Danielle: And that helps when you have multiple diagnoses too, because my ADHD clients often do better when they can get up and walk around every couple of minutes, right? Or take meetings on the phone while walking around the park, or listening to their own music while they're working, those kinds of things. It doesn't really matter what the diagnosis is, but those are things that I feel like many neurotypical employees would benefit from as well.

Skye: Yeah, no, you're so right. I actually have an example I wanted to share with you. It really reminded me when you said you were talking about feeling more comfortable after a period of time, but I also wanted to ask you about feeling less comfortable. So, for example, sometimes I have clients who will go on a three day conference and they have to concentrate essentially for three. They have to go into meetings. It's pretty organized. They have workshops and they're in a foreign space, and day one they're like, okay, I can do this. And day two, but by the time there's day three, it can be really difficult. And so we often talk about the idea of bringing out your supports early and not necessarily trying to be neurotypical from the beginning because it can be exhausting by the end, and you might sort of burn yourself out. What would your advice be to that kind of person?

Danielle: Oh, yeah, exactly what you just said. That in a regular work environment where you're not at a conference, you come home and you fall over, right. If you've been masking all day or you've been really highly focused on presenting a certain way all day, you come home and a lot of us just collapse and sleep for 10 hours. That was my experience working in the traditional office. And so if you're going to be in a kind of a full time on, bringing in those supports early, taking lots of regulation breaks, taking lots of movement breaks, making sure you're eating and sleeping, like doing all those basic things. And also just, I mean, to some degree, being okay with the fact that you're a person and you don't have to be a perfect machine. Like you're allowed to take off time. Even if you have to go hide in the bathroom for half an hour, like go hide in the bathroom, it's fine. No one's going to remember in six months that you hid in the bathroom for ten minutes to calm down if you get overburdened. And the more dysregulated you get, the longer it's going to take to come back. Right? So if you notice yourself starting to dysregulate and you can kind of catch it and take a movement break, take a bathroom break, drink some water, whatever it is, you're going to reregulate a lot faster than if you spend three days, exhaust yourself. It's going to take two weeks to get back, a month to get back. And that's usually not time we want to take, but it's time your body's going to make you take if you don't do it. So you might as well start it early and really make sure you're taking care of yourself the whole way, because it's just not worth it in the long run.

Skye: No. And I think it's so easy to think, like, I can do this. This is fine, I can do this, and then not necessarily realize that actually, this is going to get much more difficult, especially if the lights are harsh, which they often are.

Danielle: Yeah. And I think there's this pressure for a lot of us to just push through challenging times and difficulties. And I get that. But it's also that there's a difference between a one time emergency situation that you push through and a constant, every day I go to work and I push through. Like, you're here for one life. Is that what you want your every day to be? It's longer term, better for your mental health and your just general well being. If you can learn how to take those moments to, like, I have clients who go outside and count leaves or stop and look at the fish and track them. You can do very small regulation breaks that can be really supportive in the long term.

Skye: Yeah, definitely. And like you said, going to the bathroom, you're always allowed to just be like, oh, I have to go to the bathroom!

Danielle: I have to take this call!

Skye: Just to get out of the space. Yeah. They're both excellent, excellent reasons to be able to leave the space at any point. Sarah, did you have any questions about the work space and ADHD? And ASD specifically, before we move on to the next topic?

Sarah: Yeah, I think that we really covered a lot of ground with this. I was really interested to hear you talk about the overstimulation strategies that you would suggest for your clients. One thing that really struck me is that it's almost exactly what we would suggest to our clients as well. So in that way, it sort of sounds like the ADHD and the ASD populations really can self regulate in similar types of ways.

Danielle: There's not a lot of research on autism and ADHD together that I'm aware of anyway. The research I've seen is that somewhere between 30 and 80%, which is a huge range, which is ridiculous, that that's the best we can do. Between 30 and 80% of autistics are also ADHD, and it's similar the other way. And so I think there is a lot of crossover and a lot of people who are probably, like, diagnosed with one and not diagnosed with the other, but with it. But a lot of us have the same or similar sensory challenges or system regulation challenges.

Skye: Yeah, you're right. I've heard that statistic as well. 30% to 80%. That's a broad spectrum.

Danielle: I know. Yeah.

Skye: It's almost as much in the middle as on the sides of that statistic.

Danielle: Yeah. In many cases, when I work with somebody with ASD, I just kind of assume that they have ADHD too, and sometimes vice versa, because it's like, there's so much overlapping that is more likely to help. Suggesting a regulation strategy that doesn't work doesn't end up being harmful for most people. And so I'd rather be like, here are the things that most of our neurodivergent clients use, and choose what works for you.

Skye: Yeah. And I think this is something, Sarah, we were discussing as well, is that we've had clients with ADHD ask if there is a benefit to getting diagnosed with ASD. They might think that they have ASD, but there's a feeling of, like, what's the point? Sometimes people have negative experiences getting diagnosed the first time. They don't really want to go down that whole experience again. So what would you say to those people?

Danielle: It's a really personal decision, and there are some benefits, but there's also a lot of downsides, and I think sometimes those aren't talked about as much. So I think it has to come down to what the individual feels is going to be best for them. But for adults, and again, depending on where you live, if you have significant support needs, and you could maybe qualify for disability or government aid or something like that, and you think you might want to eventually use that, then you need the medical diagnosis. At least in the United States, if you are an adult and you don't need a medical diagnosis, there's still the question of your own validation. Like, if you feel like you might be autistic, but you're really not sure and it's eating you up inside, then maybe it's worth it to go get the diagnosis from a medical professional. Those kind of two cases aside, in lots of cases, it could be actively harmful to get diagnosed, unfortunately, just because of the stigma around autism. Many countries limit the number of autistic people who can immigrate. Many countries don't allow autistic people to adopt. This is used really inconsistently. Right? And so you might be autistic and have adopted fine. Right? There's other levels of privilege, too, that I'm sure go, so if you're a rich, white autistic, you're probably going to be able to adopt. Right? But if you're somebody with less privilege, that might not be the case. There are obviously a lot of difficulties in terms of finding work and finding places in the society. If you're autistic, there's just a lot of places you could be taken advantage of. And so there are reasons to do it, and there are reasons to not do it. And I just kind of encourage people to do the research and really think about it and maybe talk to some folks in your community who are autistic about what they've decided and make your decision based on that. Most therapies and resources and supports that are available for autistic adults are available whether you have a, professional diagnosis or not. Most coaches will work with you, obviously self diagnosed versus—because we're looking at the specific things. Most medicines don't really, they're not for autism, they're for some trait or symptom associated with autism. Things like occupational therapy and speech therapy and those kinds of things can usually be accessed on insurance, regardless of an autism diagnosis. And in some cases, you can't even access them, even if you did have an autism diagnosis because of how insurance works. So those are all things to look at. I feel very lucky that I've been kind of able to be out with mine. And obviously, I wish people could be safe and be able to be obviously autistic on the Internet and stuff, but there are lots of ways it's not safe, and so you just have to take care of yourself. Sorry to be so down about it, but it's important.

Skye: No, I'd never heard of some of that information. It's so interesting, and, yeah, I really feel like that's a great, great answer to that question because we do get that all the time. So now we're just going to direct them to this podcast episode.

Danielle: I'm glad. I hope it helps. Yeah.

Skye: Now, I have a one year old. Since I saw you last, I had a little baby boy. Sarah has a nine year old and a little one as well. And so I wanted to let Sarah ask some questions, specifically, about what it's like raising neurodiverse children, because my child is still too young to know, but I am very curious as well. So, Sarah, I'll leave these questions to you.

Sarah: Yeah, so my first question is sort of selfish. What is your experience raising neurodiverse children? Because I've got one, for sure, and some days it just doesn't feel easy. So I'm just curious what it's like for you.

Danielle: Sure. So I guess a little background. I have an eight year old and a ten year old. They're both neurodivergent in some similar and some very different ways. And I was diagnosed autistic after my first child was already diagnosed. And so there's a lot of identity stuff tied up with that because it was like, we realized he might be and I did all the research and I got him assessed and all the things, and then I realized, oh, it's me. And then I got assessed. And then my second one came along and very early we were like, oh, your sensory needs are intense. Okay. This was probably before one year old, we were like, oh, okay, it's definitely you two in some capacity. And so we've kind of been in it from the beginning. So we had a really challenging go of it in the beginning, partly because multiple of us were unassessed and not getting support and didn't know what we needed and didn't know how our brains worked and all those things. And even once we got more of that information going, there weren't a lot of resources for parents who are neurodivergent. There were lots of resources for kids with autism and neurotypical parents with kids with autism, but there wasn't a lot for like, well, if you are neurodivergent yourself, what are some tricks and tips and help? And then as they grew, I tried a couple of different parenting methods before I really found what worked for us. And so there were some really challenging times and also times when there were, sort of, competing access needs. Like kiddo one needs a lot of quiet and a lot of focus and a lot of honed in time. And kiddo two is like the busiest hyperactive, running around, yelling kind of toddler in the world. And so it was very like, how do we get you both what you need in a way that's supportive for everyone? And I don't lose my head and their other parents don't lose their heads and all those things. So it was a lot of trial and error. Now I actually teach parenting, and I feel, like, pretty solid about what works for us. And a lot of it is figuring out the sensory needs and then collaborative communication. So figuring out how to get what everybody needs, articulate what everybody needs, and create solutions where this kiddo has trampoline access at all times, this kiddo has quiet access at all times, this kiddo has heavy work access at all times, or whatever it is. And when they have a problem, there's like, a clear path for how do we solve this problem that they know to use so that we don't have the meltdowns and the tantrums that are actually just behavior not getting met, and the random screaming, throwing things at the wall, all the things that a lot of us with big nervous systems and big emotions feel. So that was a long answer. I hope that was helpful.

Sarah: It is. I had a very similar go in the beginning when it—I was diagnosed ADHD sort of before my son was, but I pursued diagnosis because I realized that I needed to learn how to help him because it was very obvious when he was quite young. And so all of the resources were telling me, like, oh, well be consistent with discipline and, like, routines and things like that. And I was like, this is going to be tough. But we got there in a very methodical way, just sort of like what you just described. I would love to talk more about managing your own self regulation while the children are dysregulated, because that is such a big important step that we can take as parents to sort of model not only proper self regulation strategies, but also sometimes what dysregulation can look like. So how do you sort of navigate both of those different ways?

Danielle: Yeah. And it's a lot. Well, for me, what I initially used to do was, when my kids were really young, like safe enough to be left alone for ten minutes, but also still pretty little. We sort of established this, like, if I'm in a certain place, then you can come talk to me, but I'm going to be in the room for a minute, right? And I would go to a dark room and just breathe for a second. And there was just this sort of, I would say, we had like, cuewords that we all had, partly to tag parents in and out without the kid being aware that we were having a moment, but also just for the kids themselves, that like, I'm just going to take a minute because I'm feeling really overwhelmed. So naming the emotion, not blaming them at all, but just naming what I'm feeling so that they could start to learn feelings, words, and then taking the minute and really prioritizing taking the minute, even if really, unless there was an emergency. Because I think a lot of parents, especially if you're socialized as a woman, you're taught to put other people in front of you, but you're going to fall over if you always put other people in front of you. And it sucks when your two year old is exhausted crying at you, but I'm not going to be able to help her if I'm also going to exhaust cry in a minute and just get stuck. So I would prioritize taking the two minutes and coming back, or taking the five minutes and coming back and letting them know that they were safe and cared for and I loved them and I was going to come right back. But also it was important to take that two minutes. The other thing we would do is, in calm times, we talked a lot about just identifying emotions, recognizing that sometimes emotions come up and they're real and they're important, but they're also not like the truth of the world and being able to sort of start to understand. So even my young kids now can kind of understand, like, oh, my brain is doing this thing and I'm feeling this thing, but I bet if I wait five minutes or I eat or drink or pee, right, do some bodily fixing, that it'll fix. And so just talking a lot about that kind of emotional regulation strategy stuff. The other thing I really recommend for parents is, and you can do this with your kids or by yourself. It's kind of fun as a family activity, but I teach in my practice, making a regulation cheat sheet, which can be a pinterest board or a list or a collage or however artistic you want to make it, where you really think through, like, what do I do when I'm stressed out that makes me feel better. And that could be like, some of them I already said, right? Like taking some deep breaths, watching the fish, counting the leaves. They can be cognitive strategies like counting or reciting the alphabet backwards or something. Or they can be physical strategies like breathing or taking a walk or doing some stimming or bouncing on the pilates ball or whatever it is, but something that makes you feel calmer, that can take 30 seconds to five minutes. And then a lot of us, when we're in anxiety, our higher brain function shuts down, we can't think creatively, we can't problem solve. So make yourself like a picture schedule, like a cheat sheet that you can have on your fridge and you have on your bathroom mirror and some people have it as the background on their cell phone. And when you're starting to feel dysregulated, look at that thing and be like, I'm going to deep breathe for 5 seconds and do that, and then make the next decision. But if you don't regulate yourself first, you're not going to be able to help your kids, you're not going to be able to help your partners. Everyone's going to fall over.

Sarah: Yes, exactly. And you know what, my mantra right now, I have a five month old as well as a nine year old. I forget where I read this. So if you're listening and I don't credit you, I'm so deeply sorry, but you've made a big impact on my life. A dysregulated adult can never help to regulate their child, and that is like, what I am living by right now. COVID times brought out a lot of emotional intelligence language in the school systems and so I'm deeply grateful for that head start that my child has gotten and I hope that it is the same for all children that have had to go through that experience. But yeah, so that's really what it sounds like you're telling me is just sort of start installing that emotional intelligence language into your children pretty early. Normalizing self regulation strategies. That cheat sheet you were talking about is giving me major dopamenu vibes, but for grounding.

Danielle: It's very similar. Yeah, it is.

Sarah: Yeah, Because when we're stuck, we're not going to have the working memory capacity to really think like, oh, well, what am I going to do right now? It's like, no, you need to stop and break glass in case of emergency.

Danielle: Exactly.

Sarah: So I love that.

Danielle: I hadn't considered it in context with a dopamenu, but you're absolutely right. It's exactly the same thing. It's just for a slightly different circumstance. But a lot of us, like you said, have working memory challenges. But also when you're stressed out, sometimes the creative part of your brain just shuts down, like it doesn't—your brain's diverting energy to threat response. It takes all your creative energy to put it there. So you need to have backups.

Skye: Just a long term reminder that says go to the fridge. Look at the fridge. That's great. Yeah. This is great. I'm just learning and absorbing. I'm like, okay, cool.

Danielle: Yay, I'm glad.

Sarah: You got this, Skye.

Skye: Yeah, he's only just getting to old enough to have his own little personality and needs and it's just starting to see them come out now.

Danielle: Such a good age.

Skye: It's exciting, but it's also just like, oh, okay, we're all going to regulate together. This is going to be good.

Danielle: I did that a lot. When my kids were little and they picked fights with one another, one of mine was late talking too, so they were learning to talk around the same time. And they're kids, they would squabble or have a fight or whatever. And we'd all sit down on the floor together and just be like, okay, talking stick. What do you feel happened? Okay. What do you feel happened? Okay, so I'm hearing this person feels this and this person feels this. Agree or disagree and let them just practice those tools even when they're really little, because they'll pick it up. And now they solve problems by themselves. And I don't have to do it. I can sit here and do a podcast recording instead.

Skye: That's so great. Yeah, well, I really only have one other question for you, which is if you had anNeurodiverse life motto, what would it be?

Danielle: Let's see. I think for a lot of us, we live in a lot of fear just because there's so much stigma. Stuff is so hard for us day to day. And also some of us have significant anxiety. And so I see a lot of clients and myself kind of get stuck in this generation phase instead of just doing the thing. And so I think my go to motto is what's the first thing I can do? And to just really focus on the action step. So if I'm dysregulated, what's one thing I can do to help better. If I'm having a problem or disagreeing with someone, what's one thing I can do to sort of adjust it and to just really focus on that tiny first step instead of the whole big thing that's wrong, because it's too overwhelming. So, maybe for a motto that could be like break it down into your tiniest first step. Do that thing. I have to workshop that a little bit.

Skye: You can get back to us. We'll make T-shirts.

Danielle: Yes, exactly.

Skye: But no, that's great. No, I love that.

Danielle: Small steps forward. There you go. How's that?

Skye: Small steps forward. I love that. I love that. Yeah, that is really important and so true for everybody. I'm sure you work with clients. We do as well, and it's so much about that.

Danielle: Yeah.

Skye: Well, thanks so much for taking the time to share your story and your neurodiverse skills with us today. Where can people find out more about you and what you do?

Danielle: Thanks so much for having me. It's really good to see you again, and I really appreciate your time. I'm at neurodiverging.com. I run Neurodiverging Coaching. We also have a podcast that's just called Neurodiverging, streaming wherever you find your podcasts. And those are good places to check out and see what we have and come join us.

Skye: Yeah, definitely check out Danielle's podcast. It's really, really great.

Danielle: Come listen to Skye. It's a very popular episode.

Skye: Yeah. Listen to baby me. Like one of my first podcast episodes.

Danielle: Oh you did great. You did awesome.

Skye: Awesome. Well yeah, no, wonderful. Thanks so much for being here. It's wonderful to have you. 

Skye: Thanks for listening. If you'd like to reach out or connect with us, you can leave us a message at admin@unconventionalorganisation.com.

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Skye: If you'd like to learn more about what we discussed here today, or you want to read the transcript, you can find that at our Show Notes page at unconventionalorganisation.com.

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Skye: Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you back in the ADHD Lab next week.