Skye: Hi. We are the ADHD Skills Lab Podcast. My name is Skye.

Sarah: And my name is Sarah.

Skye: And we will be your hosts chatting to you about practical ADHD strategies you can use, the research behind some of these strategies, as well as interviewing other professionals with ADHD about how they've developed skills in working through struggles in their lives.

Sarah: You might know us from Unconventional Organisation, where we talk about this kind of stuff all day long. So we're super excited to have you along, and we're going to chat through it together.

Skye: David Greenwood is the author of the popular book Overcoming Distractions: Thriving with Adult ADHD, and the host of the podcast of the same name. He has worked in many spaces, almost always as an entrepreneur, including owning a karate school, which I didn't know, a restaurant near Boston, and starting his own public relations firm. Today, David provides ADHD and burnout coaching to support adults with ADHD. Welcome David. It's great to have you on the pod.

David: Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. I truly appreciate it.

Skye: Yeah, no problem at all. And just for those of you who don't know, I have been on David's podcast as well. An excellent one. So yeah, it's really great to have you.

David: You're a great resource. So I thank you for your advice and wisdom and everything else.

Skye: Yeah, no worries. No worries at all. So why don't we start just by talking about where you're based in the world because we obviously have a lot of people from different spaces.

David: I'm just outside of Boston, Massachusetts, born and bred here. I only moved maybe 20 miles from where I was born, so I've pretty much stuck it out here my entire life.

Skye: And what about your ADHD diagnosis story? I've talked a little bit with people about their ADHD and a lot of times it's a late diagnosis, but it sounds like for you that wasn't the case.

David: I have to admit, given that I am a child of the 60's, I don't actually recall the actual diagnosis. I could go on for longer than we have here about all the things that I did as a kid were probably massive red flags. And honestly, I think a lot of us in this space know that probably the diagnosis of the process was probably very much different 20, 30, 40 plus years ago, so. But I was a Ritalin kid. But yeah, I'm sure I had some official diagnosis, but it's been so long.

Skye: Yeah, definitely. So when was the first time the idea of ADHD really entered your consciousness? Was it when you were younger as well? Or was that something you were on Ritalin? You didn't really know the reasons for it or anything like that?

David: Yeah, I can't say that I really probably had any type of self awareness when I was a child. I mean, I write about it right in the beginning of Overcoming Distractions where I tired my mother out. And there was a point where I was sick for about a week, and she wouldn't let me go out. That was when your parents wouldn't let you even go outside on the front lawn or anything. And she would take my temperature every day. And then finally one day she took my temperature and it was normal, and she said, you can go out. So I just went berserk, and I ran for the front door, and it was all glass. One of those, what they call storm doors here. And I didn't hit the handle. And I went right through the glass and down the stairs.

Skye: The stairs as well?

David: Yeah and into the front yard, and there were band-aids all over me. And I think that was probably one of those points where they decided that they probably needed to see the doctor and see what the hell was wrong with me.

Skye: Yeah, it could have happened to anybody.

David: You know what? I'm your typical boy with ADHD. Hyper in class, not very good grades. High school was a complete train wreck for me. I remember not even remembering where I had to go to the next class. I was just completely in a fog. Somehow I clawed my way out of high school, but it wasn't a great experience for me.

Skye: Yeah, and I think a lot of people can relate to that, for sure. So with all of this, what made you decide to write Overcoming Distractions? That's such an interesting shift. I mean, a book is no joke in terms of the amount of effort and insight it takes.

David: Well, I had been self employed in a couple of capacities off and on, and I was at a frustrating point. This is also why I wrote the second book, Overcoming Burnout, because I was in the marketing and public relations industry. And I think if anybody knows, ten plus years ago, when social media was invented, marketing and PR just fundamentally changed, so people in that industry, and I was part of that. And I think I honestly wrote it out of frustration, because I did understand my ADHD a lot better at that point. I knew a lot of entrepreneurs that built very successful businesses, and I saw a lot of the books, and they were either on parenting skills for if you had a child with ADHD, or they talked a lot about medication and what have you. And I really wanted to get into the positives of ADHD. I wanted to give people a little bit of inspiration that, yeah, here's somebody who's like me, who might have been a train wreck in school, but figured it out, built a successful business, was happy in life. I mean, I didn't go as far as to use the superpower word, because I know that can be sometimes the third rail of ADHD, but there are clearly a lot of people out there who have built successful companies and successful careers with ADHD, they've learned how to manage it. And I thought, if not only we can tell these individual stories, but there's something to learn from people who have navigated it.

Skye: Yeah, well, I think that you are right. I mean, one of the things I often talk about with clients is the idea that when you're growing up in a neurotypical environment, a predominantly neurotypical environment, you do get taught how to organize your life, how to do things in a way that just doesn't fit your brain. So sometimes it's just about even understanding that that is what you've learned can be the first step to figuring it out, for example, with writers, why ten minutes or an hour a day just isn't working for you in terms of writing.

David: Yeah. And again, as you know, working with people, that's different. You got people that, take writing for example, where maybe they could write ten or 15 minutes, other people could write for three days straight. So we're all different. And that's why I incorporated different types of stories in there, so people could relate to the different people and industries and backgrounds.

Skye: Yeah, interesting. So what do you think is the most common thing people with ADHD can struggle with at work?

David: I think it comes down to systems, and I think there's probably a number of things that fall under that category. But I know when I've worked with people, it kind of comes down to that, where I've worked with people that are in a job but just can't seem to get everything done. I've worked with people that maybe got promoted and now they're like, oh crap, now I've got more responsibilities and maybe more urgent responsibilities or important responsibilities. But I honestly think it comes down to the systems that somebody implements in life and their career. And I think one of the biggest things, if we want to go down a level, is managing time, but managing time, managing energy, constructing your work week in a way that works for you, that allows you to get stuff done according to your brain. Like, for example, I'll give you an example with me. I love to get my more important, urgent and critical thinking tasks done in the morning. So, as you mentioned, I do a lot of writing. And like I said, I still run my marketing business, so I do a lot of writing for other clients. So I like to get that done between 06:00 A.m. And 02:00 P.m.. Then my brain starts to kind of shut down And then I'll do other less important tasks that don't require a lot of brain power in the afternoon. 

Skye: During that low executive functioning time. Exactly. Yeah.

David: Right. Things that I could do blindfolded. And then it comes down to some people are halfway there. Like, I've worked with people and I said, Well, I blocked out this time. And I'm like, cool. What are we going to do with it? Well, I don't know. I'm like, alright, we're halfway there. That's cool. You blocked out the time, but you don't know what you're going to do with it. So some people kind of have the right idea, and then another big thing is just the to do lists under that system. It's like, what works for you? Do you want an electronic to do list? Do you want a piece of paper? Where does it need to be? Does it need to sync to your phone and your iPad? Does it need to be in your face?

Skye: It needs to be flexible. That's one thing.

David: Yeah, so to answer your question in the short version, it really comes down to helping people kind of methodically build a system based on what's going on in their life.

Skye: Totally. Yeah. No, I agree. In terms of self employment, because you've obviously had so much experience with running your own businesses, doing your own things. One of the biggest struggles that we tend to see from people is that self motivation, no one is externally monitoring them. You wake up in the morning, like you said, you have those systems in place now, but for a lot of people, it can be really tough. They want to do it, but then it's hard to motivate. Is this something that you've experienced?

David: Yeah, and I think Mark Cuban, who is on Shark Tank, I don't know if you guys get Shark Tank over there, he said one thing is you don't have a business unless you have a repeatable duplicatable system. There's that word again. But I think that is important. If you're self employed, you're running a small business that you can't just walk into your office and go, okay, what am I going to do?

Skye: So what did you end up doing with that? You've experienced that. What was the kind of thing that got you going? Because obviously you've done so much.

David: It's taking a longer term look at my calendar, and trying to plan more than a week. And I try to revisit my calendar at least once a month because things change all the time. I got a kid in school, I have an aging parent. so things do change on a regular basis here. It's almost like I have to be ready for change.

Skye: And I think that's a common experience.

David: Yeah. So while I do, again, try to get certain routines and things in place and try and do similar projects or tasks or what I call theme days, where I'll carve out almost an entire day for one type of activity, whether it be writing or going to networking events or what have you, or doing projects for clients. Those types of things. I'm constantly shifting those days and times around to make sure that they continue to work for me. If you don't and you just continue to plug holes and turn your week into what I would call plug and play, then that's one of the reasons that people with ADHD go into burnout because they don't have those systems and they're not managing their time properly.

Skye: And those conflicting demands as well. When you get through that, yeah.

David: And I think adults with ADHD get to burnout faster than neurotypical.

Skye: The research would back you up on that. I think the research indicates that masking can be a factor as well on top of everything else. And that can be the tipping point sometimes for burnout.

David: Yeah, I mean, when I went through burnout and wrote the second book, writing a book on ADHD, holding down a weekly podcast, when I really got into writing the book, it should have been more obvious to me than it was that I was not properly managing my time. I could have done a much better job. And we've done countless podcasts on time management and everything else with various people over the years, it should have been obvious to me. So that's why I'm almost relentless as an entrepreneur now with not only managing time but protecting personal time.

Skye: Yeah, those boundaries are so important when you're talking about burnout. Being able to protect your time and protect your space, I think it can really be tough. And even if you work for yourself, that does not mean that things are not coming at you from all angles and taking in those boundaries for sure.

David: No. And it's interesting, I did a podcast earlier today with someone else out here in the Boston area, and that's what we talked about is protecting that personal time. And in the beginning when you're an entrepreneur, maybe the first couple of years you're taking any business you can get and you're trying to please clients and you don't want to lose money because you don't want to lose that venture, so to speak. But as time goes on and you build your business, I think you are more able to set those parameters and those boundaries. So sometimes in the beginning you do have to do what it takes. But over time, I think it can get easier to set those boundaries if you have the confidence to do so.

Skye: Definitely. Do you have any advice for other people who might want to work for themselves but they are worried about how that's going to work with their executive functioning struggles?

David: I think they should work with a coach or at least a mentor. And I think more specifically, if you are starting a business, maybe find somebody that has business experience that might have done some of the things you want to do or has that experience because then they can kind of relate to maybe some of the things you're trying to achieve in your business and some of like again, going back to that word systems and routines and different things, you can learn from maybe their mistakes. But I think it's a good blend if you're working with an ADHD coach or a mentor. I think that's an important step in the beginning if people can afford it. Otherwise you're going to kind of muddle your way through launching a business without fixing your habits and your executive function struggles and what have you.

Skye: Yeah, I got a business mentor right from the beginning and it was hugely, hugely impactful. I think having somebody who can just help you break things down and make them seem normal and less intimidating so that you don't have that self criticism, perfectionism, and everything else adding to that executive functioning struggle. Yeah, 100%, I definitely agree with you.

David: Right. And I made mistakes in the beginning, like going back to making sure I wanted clients to be happy and everything else that whole people pleasing came into play. Like, I had clients out 60, 90 days. These are big companies. I would just send another follow up the following month trying to not rock the boat, so to speak. And then finally it would get to like 90 days and some of these clients were on retainer and I'd be like, hey, can you pay up? And they're like, oh, we're sorry, whatever. And then my response would always be, oh no worries, don't worry about it. And I'm like, no, that's wrong.

Skye: And now you're spending a lot of extra time following and chasing those emails as well. Time that you didn't necessarily plan to. Yeah.

David: And you get stressed out, you get resentful because you're like, I'm working for this company and they won't even pay me. But I don't have the confidence to actually confront them. And I think working with a mentor or somebody right in the beginning and not making those mistakes because adults with ADHD are prone to those mistakes.

Skye: Yeah, I totally agree. If anybody's listening and they have made those mistakes, I just want to say it's all good. We've all done it.

David: Well. Exactly. Yeah. Don't take us the wrong way. We're trying to help you not make those mistakes. But we do make them. Okay? And like you said, if you've made them fine. Water under the bridge, let's fix them.

Skye: Yeah, no, 100%. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I just have some ADHD quick questions to end. They're just some questions that I ask everyone. Tell us about one professional achievement that you are the most proud of.

David: I think working with Special Olympics, but being able to take my experience on the national and international level. I mean, I was hired as the PR director here in Massachusetts, but I quickly started to get tapped into national projects. I worked on some World Games. I worked on World Games that were hosted here in the US. I helped out with the World Games in China, and then one of the, I guess, pinnacles, and it sounds like a weird way, but when the founder of Special Olympics passed away, Eunice Kennedy Shriver, I helped manage all the media here in Massachusetts, because the Kennedys are from Cape Cod here, from Massachusetts. And as you can imagine, it was an international media event, and I basically spent a week managing local, national, sometimes international media. So from a kid who was scooping ice cream to being able to work on a project like that, I think I hold that as one of my accomplishments because I never went to school for PR.

Skye: No. That's so cool. Yeah, definitely. And conversely, is there a professional failure that you've been embarrassed by in the past? How did you deal with that? Because a lot of us have those experiences as well.

David: I think there's probably several. I'm not sure I could put my finger on one. But I think as entrepreneurs, we try and launch new projects or enter other areas of business, and maybe we didn't totally prep ourselves completely or the idea just for some reason didn't work. So I'm not sure I've been embarrassed by anything, but I've learned to just walk away. If I think I did something that was wrong in the planning process or I missed something, we might give it another shot. But if something just crashed and burned, I'm totally cool walking away.

Skye: Yeah. And I think that's a good skill. That's a good skill to learn on top of everything else is being able to do that. Because that self regulation piece is so huge with ADHD being able to regulate from those up times, but also those times when things go wrong, being able to be like, okay, I'm going to do these things. I'm going to get back into it. Yeah. So that's really good to know.

David: Yeah. I don't think I've ever hid under the covers for two weeks because I screwed up some project or anything. You just got to get up and figure out your next move. And I think that's a quality of people with ADHD.

Skye: Yeah. That movement.

David: Yeah. We're good at just kind of saying, alright, whatever. Move on. What's next?

Skye: Yeah, exactly. Speaking of what's next, if you had an ADHD life motto, you don't have to pick just one, but if you had one, what would it be?

David: Be in charge. Don't let your ADHD run you. Don't let things going on in your life control you. Be in charge. Be in charge of your ADHD. Own it. As my friend Jeff Copper, another ADHD coach says, own your ADHD. Make sure you have self awareness, but own the other things going on in your life. Like I mentioned, I have an aging parent, and I drive him to a fair amount of medical appointments. But there was a time when he would book those appointments or the doctor would book the appointment and I would just have to just stop everything and have to take him. And sometimes in the middle of the day, and if I have to drive far and pick him up and then go to the appointment and bring him back, I can kill an entire day. So now I make medical appointments, I call and because I'm driving him, it's got to fit into my schedule. So for example, I always ask for the last appointment of the day if I can. Sometimes it doesn't always work, but I mean, that's one of many examples of being in charge and not letting, to the extent you can, the circumstances in life destroy days and weeks on end because you're responding to everything. So my motto would be be in charge. Take charge as much as you can.

Skye: Yeah, no, that's awesome. Great. Well, thank you so much, David, for taking the time to share your story and your ADHD skills with us today. Where can people find out more about you and the awesome things that you do?

David: Yeah, it's just overcomingdistractions.com they can find the two books there, Overcoming Distractions, you can find Overcoming Burnout. So if people are listening to this and they're getting to the point where they are feeling burned out, they can read it. The book is not ADHD specific, but I think people can relate to the advice and the stories that are in that book. I've got a couple of courses on there. One is a time management course, one is ADHD in the Workplace, and the third one is Just Diagnosed with ADHD. And I approach that like, would I have done 40 plus years ago had I known? What would I have done and what would I have asked for differently? So they can find all those things at overcomingdistractions.com.

Skye: Awesome. Well, thanks so much David. Great to have you on.

David: Yeah, thank you. And good luck with this podcast.

Skye: Thanks for listening. If you'd like to reach out or connect with us, you can leave us a message at admin@unconventionalorganisation.com.

Sarah: You can also find out more about our ADHD coaching organization, read our free articles, or sign up to our online courses at unconventionalorganisation.com. That's organization with a Z or an S, they both will get you there.

Skye: If you'd like to learn more about what we discussed here today, or you want to read the transcript, you can find that at our Show Notes page at unconventionalorganisation.com.

Sarah: If you've enjoyed this podcast and think someone else might find the strategies and stories helpful, the best thing you can do is share episodes using the Share button in the podcast player, or leave a five star review on Apple or Spotify or your podcast player of choice, letting them know why you've benefited from this podcast.

Skye: Thanks so much for listening, and we'll see you back in the ADHD Lab next week.