ADHD psychology, parenting and self-criticism: A conversation with Emily Kircher-Morris

Hi, we are the ADHD Skills Lab podcast. My name is Skye. And my name is Sarah. And we will be your hosts chatting to you about practical ADHD strategies you can use, the research behind some of these strategies, as well as interviewing other professionals with ADHD about how they've developed skills and working through struggles in their lives. You might know us from Unconventional Organization, where we talk about this kind of stuff all day long. So we're super excited to have you along and we're going to chat through it together.

So today we have on Emily Kircher Morris. Emily works as a mental health counselor in private practice. She's the author of two books related to the development of children and teens who are neurodivergent and cognitively gifted. And she also hosts the Neurodiversity podcast, which is a wonderful podcast, which has been going for a really long time now, and I was lucky enough to be on, which explores the psychological, educational and social needs. for enriching the lives of neurodiversion people. So lots of cool stuff there. Welcome, Emily. It's great to have you on the podcast. Oh, thanks, Sky. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah. So let's start just by asking, where are you based? You're in the US, right? I am. I live in St. Louis, Missouri, so kind of in the middle. And I grew up here pretty much, and I kind of have lived a couple other places, but keep ending up back here because this is where family is. Awesome. That's great. And so a lot of the work you do that really came across is working with kids. What was it that made you decide you wanted to work with neurodiverse young people? When I entered college and I was trying to determine what I wanted to do for a career, you know, one of the things that really was kind of the main experiences that I had growing up was being neurodivergent and being diagnosed with ADHD when I was in elementary school. which at the time was pretty rare. This was back like in the early 90s. And so not many people, especially girls, were diagnosed with ADHD, but school was really difficult. So I chose to go into education. And my goal really was to improve school and academics for kids who learn and think differently. And so that's kind of where I started. And after that time kind of... progressed and led me to pursue counseling. And I've now kind of moved into that world. But that's kind of where the working with kids and teens kind of really started just because I was, I went into education more than anything. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely understand that. And so for you, you know, has having your own children had any effect on how you work with kids? Yes. Actually, it's funny that you asked that question because- When I first started teaching, and even when I first started as a mental health counselor, well, when I was teaching, I had no kids. When I started my mental health counseling practice, my children were maybe like three and one. I mean, they were very young. And so I look back now at parents who asked me for help, and I was trying to give them suggestions and ideas. And I look back now, having kids, my kids are now 15, 13 and eight. I'm like, I have no idea why anybody ever listened to me because I absolutely had no idea what I was talking about. I think until you live it, you really just don't know what you don't know. And I think it gives a different perspective as far as the empathy piece, just being able to connect with parents and understand the struggles that they're going through and having a household filled with neurodivergent people and all different types of needs and accommodations and sensory profiles and all of these different things. It can be really stressful, but I like to be really open and authentic about that because it normalizes it for people because parents who have neurodivergent kids, first of all, they're more likely to be neurodivergent themselves. But also, the typical advice is that parents' kid doesn't always work and it's hard. It's just harder. And I don't ever want to promote a victim mentality. That's not my point. I'm just saying that it's okay to recognize that it's difficult, but having my own kids has definitely shifted that. Yeah, and that's something that I, you know, spoiler alert, we're going to ask you all the questions about parenting because, you know, I have quite young kids. Some people in our organization have older kids, but it's definitely a difference, I think, working with having kids. There's a lot of, oh, no, that is almost impossible. That thing that you thought was really simple before. That's interesting. And yeah, it is very, I imagine for you, when you're talking now, it's not hard to. come up with a number of examples for anything based on just what's been going on in your household in the past week. Oh, absolutely. It's always changing and always interesting, but yes. Yeah, yeah, 100%. So before we get into that, I want to talk a little bit about your neurodiversity story and your diagnosis journey, because I am really curious to find out kind of what that looks like for you. So when did you find out that you were neurodiverse? What is your sort of number of neurodiversities? Is it just ADHD or is it other things as well? Yeah, so, well, it's kind of interesting. I guess maybe I'll kind of walk you through the process because, you know, as you know, those labels kind of come. Yeah, it's a journey for a reason. Yeah. When I was a kid, actually, my mom was a special educator and so she was kind of on it and she was very much my advocate and really helped me a lot. And so she actually originally asked for me to be assessed for the gifted education program in our schools because she knew that some of the things that she was seeing just weren't typical for kids my age. However, I was never the child that would have been referred by my teachers because I was disorganized and kind of just all over the place and all of these different things. That spiky profile, yeah. Absolutely. But I also, you know, was reading and writing, you know, all of those things. So that was really the first label that I received, which was when I was about seven or eight years old in second grade. So that was interesting. And that's actually part of kind of where I ended up where, you know, as far as education, I actually taught for a while in gifted education. That was part of my experience drawing from that. But by the time I was in fifth grade, so about maybe 11 years old or so, I was just continuing to really struggle. My teachers didn't really know how to support me. My grades were really poor. Like there were a lot of things that were going on with that. when I was really just having this hard time, my mom kept pushing and she wanted to know, she's like, something else isn't adding up here. So she found a neurologist and had me assessed. And at the time I was diagnosed with ADHD, as I mentioned. Well, we called it ADD at the time. I was identified with predominantly, well, what we would call now inattentive type. The hyperactive piece is definitely there too, but I think especially at that time with girls, they didn't really identify that. And so those are the two diagnoses that I had. But I will also say that When I look at my experience as a child now, and I understand so much more specifically about autism, the process that our society has gone through about learning about autism, like I feel like autism today kind of is where ADHD was back then. And if I were a kid today, we would have looked at that autism piece as a question. We would have considered it, yeah. Because I had a lot of difficulties with things. especially with emotional regulation. I mean, I remember I would just sit in the back of the classroom and kind of hide in the library and just cry and cry and cry. When people talk about situational mutism, like I understand that, but also as an adult who's in the clinical setting, at this point, there's no official way for me to really know that or claim that. And while I have feelings about self-diagnosis that I think that it's really important for many neurodivergent people, for myself, it feels weird. So I've never officially. given myself that label, but I talk about it freely because I do think that it really influences a lot of kind of how I operate. So that was kind of those things as a kid, but it was interesting too. And I just want to kind of mention, and I think maybe some of your listeners might really relate to this. When I graduated from high school, at that time, I kind of decided like, I don't know if I'm ADHD, I don't know if I need any meds, I think I can do it on my own, all these different things, right? I graduated from high school. Yes. It's like things are fine. And I went the next over 10 years. really stressed out, overwhelmed, treating myself for anxiety and depression, different medications, being in therapy, all of these things. And finally, when my oldest, who I mentioned is now 15, he was diagnosed with ADHD in second grade and I saw how much the medication really helped him. And so I went back to my doctor and I said, I had this diagnosis as a kid, what do you think? You know, and she goes, yeah, let's, you know, see what happens. Let's try some medication. And for me, all of my anxiety that I had been treating for years went away because it was all related to that executive functioning stuff. It's interesting as we kind of go through that process, how that really influences things. Yeah, it is interesting. And I think a lot of people have similar stories. for sure, you know, that idea of maybe you didn't ever know you had it, but also maybe you had it in school and somehow it just gets lost. I mean, working memory is a real thing. If people don't remind us, we have ADHD. You know, when you're young, you're in your 20s, you're like, I'm in mid-school, I can do this. It's fine. And, you know, it's definitely interesting. I also wanted to say just as a slightly off topic point. I do wonder how many neurodiverse kids are hiding in the library because I was also that kid who went to the library, especially when I was young in primary school. That just brought back a lot of memories. I was like, yeah, that was my phase. I just didn't have the words at the time to explain what I was experiencing. I can look back on that now with a lot of self-compassion, but at the time it was really, really hard. Yeah, definitely. I think it was a quiet space when you think back to the traditional. classroom environment, you're not as much connecting with people. Sometimes that can be very overwhelming for young kids. Yeah, I definitely think that parents and teachers like, notice who's hanging out in the library. Yeah. That might be a good end of care. Right. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. It's a really interesting journey. I really appreciate it. Another question I had about it, which is something I like to ask a lot of people who are in this space is that you decided to be open about your neurodiversity, which is a decision. There's lots of people that I'm sure you work with and I work with as well, who don't make that decision for a variety of reasons. So what made you decide to do that? Well, I know that even as a kid, I was very happy to claim the label because for what it's worth, it kind of like, you know how kids are. And it was like, I was the hyper friend, right? Like I was, you know, and I didn't really, I never had any shame associated with it. I mean, and again, I think it always kind of helped me. explain some things. I mean, did I on occasion tell my teachers that I didn't have my homework done because I had ADHD? Yeah, definitely. I mean, I used it as an excuse. But also, it was never really an excuse, but it was also just kind of like, it gave me a way to focus on a solution without having to internalize the shame that went along with some of those things. So even as a kid, it was something that I understood and I was open about it even from that point on. And I know, I think it was probably some of those experiences growing up. with having that self-understanding that as an adult, I wanted to share that with people. And so that self-disclosure of those identities, of those labels gives other people permission to recognize those things. And the problem is like, so often we just don't talk about things. And when we don't talk about things, we come up with different explanations. We come up with different rationales for why things are happening. Judgment statements. Yeah, usually they're negative. And so... recognizing that any type of neurodivergence comes with strengths and struggles, both sides of it, is really actually a very empowering place to be. So I've really tried to normalize it. That's one of the purposes of our podcast is to de-stigmatize neurodiversity and bring it out into the open. We don't have to be ashamed of it. Yeah. And you do a lot with them. I've been listening to your podcast about anxiety as well, which I really appreciate because it's part of it. And I think it's good to talk about that section as well. I do have a question though, I'm always curious, is there ever a time where you've been like, you know what, I'm just not gonna disclose ADHD in this context. Has there ever been a period where you sort of said like, maybe a situation where you felt like you don't want to disclose? Cause it is always that constant situation. I would say probably, like right now I'm self-employed and in a different world a little bit, even as a mental health clinician. So that's a little bit different, but I know specifically in other jobs, especially as a teacher, not that I wouldn't disclose it maybe to colleagues who I was closely working with, as a point of conversation, but if it didn't come up or it wasn't relevant or I didn't wanna like come across as if I was, again, making excuses or about different things, I wouldn't really. But I don't know that was ever really a conscious decision so much as, like, it just didn't seem relevant in the moment or something. Not that it was relevant. I don't know how to say it. Like, it wasn't maybe appropriate or important enough to try to bring it up. But anytime that there's been a time or a place, I've always kind of talked about it pretty openly. For what it's worth, you know, and somebody who is identified as cognitively gifted, and I still recognize that in myself. I mean, I do believe that. difference in intelligence kind of influences people. I'm actually much more comfortable talking about ADHD than I am about being gifted, right? Because there's so much stuff that comes along with that. So that actually makes me feel much more uncomfortable because people interpret it much more differently. There's a wider understanding of ADHD than the others. No, that's so interesting. I really appreciate your honesty on that because it's a good question because I think a lot of times people wrestle with this. internally and they don't necessarily talk about it. But it is always interesting to me to talk to people who have been very open and sort of have that conversation. Because it's something that we talk about a lot with clients. It's like, how do I disclose? When do I disclose? Who do I disclose to? You know, that kind of conversation for sure. Yeah, and I think when I went through my master's program to become a counselor, there was this big push to avoid too much self-disclosure. You don't want to tell people stuff. You don't want to make it about you. All of these different things. But one of the things that I have found is that self-disclosure is one of the most powerful pieces of information that we can share with somebody because, again, it's that feeling of universality. It's like, I'm not alone in this. And so that can be really a great tool with a lot of therapeutic value. Yeah. And it's a great way to make friends because someone else might have it as well. Yeah. Well, well, I think all the neurodivergent people, we all are magnets to each other. Right? We find each other. 100%. Like the chances that the person you're talking to will be like, me too, is often quite high. It's very high. Yeah. Awesome. 

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Yeah, so we talked about ADHD strategies. You know, we just touched on the idea of new parents strategies. What are the systems and routines that are your go-to when parenting with ADHD? It's difficult. I just want to kind of say that. And one of the things that I know from working with my clients and also with my kids is that a lot of times we often have to adapt our strategies because something that works, works temporarily. And... that newness and novelty is a good way to re-up that interest, right? Kick up that dopamine a little bit with some things. So it's hard sometimes for me to say, like, oh, this is one thing that's always worked because we're constantly kind of shifting things. Two things that I will say, the number one thing probably is a shared Google calendar that we can put all of the things on and have everyone's events. And the older kids are kind of getting to do that. My oldest has a job this summer. And coaching that has been really helpful. And it's nice because now we live in a world where we carry around these little computers in our pockets all day long. Yeah, it is very helpful. Yeah. Yeah, so that's one thing. The other thing I think that has been really helpful, just more on the parenting side of things, is trying to remind myself that often when we ask our kids to do something or they're trying to do something, often they just don't have the skills. And that could be a lot of different things. But the way I work around that more than anything, is chunking tasks into very, very small pieces and being really explicit about what it is. So here's an example. My daughter probably is impacted the most by her ADHD. I mean, it's a lot for her and she really struggles with a lot of things. But for example, cleaning her room. That's always a monumental task. She never really knows how to do it. For what it's worth, it's very overwhelming for me too. But if I give her one particular piece. Like, okay, you need to go into your room and you need to pick up all the books and I'll write it down for her so she's got the visual cue. And I like to put a little checkbox, pick up all the books, line them up on your bookshelf with the spine spacing out and then come back and check with me, right? And then what's the next thing? Now you need to pick up the clothes and put them in the hamper. But that explicit instruction in breaking things down into very manageable steps can be really, really helpful. I had talked about the working memory thing. This was actually a client that I had, but his parents kept getting so frustrated with him because his job was to load the dishwasher and he would never do it the quote unquote right way or and also to put away the dishes. That's a controversial subject. There are multiple right ways to load the dishwasher. That's true. But one of the things that we came up with as an idea was take a photo of it, print out the photo, tape it to the inside of the cupboard, tape it. So that way he has that as a point of reference because you keep getting upset with him. but then we're not changing the supports that he has. And so when we break those things down, I find that that's one of the most consistently helpful strategies with working with neurodivergent kids and teens. Yeah, but that's tough as well, because that's a huge cognitive load on you, because you're already working on your own executive functioning and then you add breaking things down for your kids. Yeah, it's overwhelming and I work a lot. You know, and I think that's the other thing is I'm very driven. I'm very motivated. I'm passionate about the things that I do. I'm also a morning person, which not a lot of ADHDers really recognize, but I'm one of those people who's like, this is actually one of the things where some times I look at that autism piece, like I have to go to bed and wake up at the same time every day, like, and a lot of ADHDers are like, really? Like that doesn't sound. Yeah. But. My point in saying that is most of my energy and focus is really front loaded to the beginning of the day. And the hard part about that is because I work with kids and teens in my office who are my clients, I often don't get home till sometimes 6, 37 o'clock in the evening. And by then my executive functioning capabilities are like, yeah, they're done. And so, and then to try to like do dinner and homework and bedtime, all of these things like That's probably one of the areas as a parent that I'm really hard on myself about because I wish I was better at it. I wish I had more energy. I wish I had more stamina, but I just don't. I think that's pretty reasonable considering. Just listening to it makes sounds pretty exhausting. It is what it is, but it's like, I wish that... I don't know what I wish really. I just wish that I wasn't so stressed out at the end of the day, always. But the bottom line is, sometimes the homework doesn't get done and I forget to check on it, right? Or sometimes Maggie's room. it's to be just really like a disaster because I don't have the energy to keep up with it on a daily basis. But also like, that's just kind of is what it is. I don't carry a lot of value, like judgment with that too much. I can recognize that I wish it was maybe different, but I also accept it for what it is. Yeah. And I did have a question about that because, you know, I think that's a very reasonable, very real experience for a lot of parents. And, but there is a lot of self criticism this neurotypical imaginary person in my head would totally get it all done and get it done early. So how do you manage that in your own life? As many ADHDers do, we do love a deadline. A deadline is super helpful, especially when it's non-negotiable. And for me, because I've often got so many things on my plate, which again is often related to my ADHD inability to estimate time, and so I take on way too many things, but that's a side note. But because of that, I'm always kind of just doing whatever the next thing is that needs to get done. But I do always know it is rare that I don't get something done by a deadline. Like I'm pretty motivated to people, please, and not let people down. Right. And so it's like, so there's a deadline, I'm going to get it done. I might get pushed till the last minute. And so I guess that's kind of, I wouldn't say that's a healthy coping skill, but that is the reality of how I kind of handle it. But also I think there's so much to be said for. not getting frustrated and upset with yourself and having that negative outlook about it because I'm very much like, well, this just is what it is and that's okay. There are definitely days when my mood is down and low and I'm frustrated and overwhelmed. I'm not gonna pretend that it isn't. However, I also know that that's temporary. Usually that's related to I didn't sleep well or I've just got a lot of things going on and I'm kind of stressed out, but once I kind of get through that checklist of things, I'll feel better about it. So recognizing those things and not getting stuck in that has been helpful. Yeah, definitely. What about those neurotypical suggestions around parenting that just don't work for you? Because there's always a couple out there. I'm very curious as someone who will probably experience this in the next couple of years, what are those for you? all of the behavioral techniques about parenting, like use timeout or you take away a privilege or you incentivize them with a sticker chart or all of these different things. In my experience, none of those things work for neurodivergent people. Well, I'm so curious. Tell me more. Yeah. Well, just because let me rephrase that. They may work in the short term. but they do not teach a skill and they are not sustainable. Right. And so ultimately, sometimes you're teaching really the wrong lessons about this. It's like, oh, I have to do this in order to color in a square on my chart or be able, you know, full disclosure. I did threaten my daughter last night that if she didn't get in the shower, I was going to take her favorite slime and I was going to throw it away. I actually asked her, I'm like, which one is your favorite? Because that's the one I'm going to throw away. It was not my best parenting moment. But again, it was a short-term solution. I needed her to get in the shower and I was frustrated at the end of the day. He worked it out. I did not throw her slime away. It was an idle threat. But I think what we have to do is we have to figure out the structure and figure out what works for us and what works for our kids. And we have to just be able to teach the skill. So for example, I'm really big on helping kids learn to self-evaluate. self-monitor like what's going on and then so they're kind of keeping track of things and then self-evaluate so that then they can self-regulate, right? We can go kind of through this cycle where we are helping them to recognize what's working, what's not, how do I leverage the things that are working and how do I, you know, move away from the things that aren't because that's a life skill. I'm always trying new strategies and techniques to manage my executive functioning and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't, but I'm trying to pay attention and kind of collect some data. And the nice thing about that is when you do that along with your child. So let's say, you know, they're having a hard time with their morning routine or whatever it is. And sometimes, well, the common response would be like, well, if you just set the routine and tell them to do it, then they should be able to do it by X, H or whatever. It's like, okay. But the next step is we'll make a schedule, make a chart, whatever. I'm like, that's fine. That is a tool, but how do we help them learn how to use it? So to me, the next step that I would do if I was working with a client, for example, is we would make a little, some sort of a chart. It might remind some people of like a reward chart or something, but that's not what it is because it's for the child to self-evaluate. How well did I do this? That's so interesting. Yeah, whatever type of evaluation they wanna use. Sometimes they wanna use like emojis, sometimes they wanna use numbers, sometimes just a check, whatever it is. But did this work today? And if it didn't, what happened? You know, if we look at it like we're a scientist. Kids are very familiar with the scientific method. They understand that we can have a hypothesis and even if the hypothesis is wrong, that's okay. It kind of takes away some of the shame of something not working. So that's a tool that I really like to use just to help them build the skills. But again, it is a process. And what we have to remember with any sort of neurodivergence is that these are neurodevelopmental diagnoses. And what that means is that it impacts their development from birth. all the way through the lifespan. And so when you look at those typical milestones, it's like by age three, they should do this, by age six, they should do this. You just have to remember that doesn't apply. And kids will get there in their own time. It might be delayed, but that's okay. They will get there. And I can promise parents that because I have clients who I've worked with for over a decade. They're now in college, they're young adults, all of these different things. And I've seen it come together for them, but it's just sometimes it's a slow process. Yeah. No, that's great. I really appreciate all of that advice. It's really true the importance of experimentation and of becoming comfortable with that. It's something that we teach adults as part of the ADHD coaching process. And to be able to learn that as a child is so, so valuable because often there are alternative, a lot of people come, it's like incredible judgment if something doesn't work immediately and then all the time. Right. And everyone says it should work. Why isn't it working for me? Yeah, exactly. That's really good. Cool. Well, I guess, you know, if we're speaking to the audience, there's going to be some parents out there who they have ADHD, you know, they listen to this podcast and maybe that they've recently found out that they have a child who also is neurodiverse, also has ADHD. And there's an incredible sense of many feelings, but also just overwhelmed because they've been working on themselves and now. there is a child who also is like them and is gonna need the support. What are some of the first steps you recommend to parents, both emotionally and then maybe in terms of executive function as well? It kind of circles back to what we were talking about at the beginning, which is just about self-disclosure. The more we can talk about our own difficulties with our kids, the more it normalizes it, and it kind of helps to take a team approach, like, hey, we're in this together. I've learned some things about myself, you're going to learn some things about yourself, we're going to learn alongside each other, and that's okay. And I think that is really an amazing thing for kids to hear because kids so often feel like adults have it all together. Yes. In that if they're going to be mature, if they're going to be adults, they have to be perfect. And that's just not reality. So we want to normalize that for them. That was a big shock as a child growing up, finding out that it wasn't the case. Yes, right. It's like you just think everyone has it all together and you're like... I think it's also interesting how many kids, when they see adults who are emotionally dysregulated, they think it's, this is my fault that mom or dad is dysregulated. This is my fault that I've done something bad and it's like, yeah, you might've made a mistake or something. And maybe you did even do something quote unquote bad, but that's on your parents to be able to regulate their emotions. Yeah. And that's great. And I totally agree, but it's also quite overwhelming for a parent who maybe struggles with that regulation. Oh, totally. Here's the other thing, I guess, along with that. Like I said, I threatened my daughter that I was gonna throw away like her favorite thing last night. So again, not perfect. I really appreciate the honesty on that. But let's say you are a parent who struggles with emotional regulation and you get really frustrated. It's okay to apologize to your kids. It's okay to say, you know what, that was not my best moment as a parent. And I love you and I want you to know that wasn't about you. That was about me. And that is a conversation that I have with my kids a lot of times. It's like... Especially about, for example, that bedtime routine that I was talking about, I was like, you have to realize that this is my worst time of the day. This is when I'm the most tired and the most irritable. So I'm trying to help you, but you've got to kind of help me a little bit too. And just kind of being really open about that. You know, you mentioned executive functioning stuff. I mean, I think it's more just figuring out what works for you. There's no perfect answer, you know, just kind of, again, that trial and error, but just know that there are solutions out there. You just have to kind of keep looking. Yeah, that's the great thing about neurodiversity. We're pretty good at problem solving and we're pretty good at coming up with new ideas. So chances are there will be something that works for you. It's just, it might take a bit of a while. Yeah, I think one of the things that also helps me, I mentioned having these clients who were very young and then have grown up and become successful, but also for what it's worth. By the time I was in high school, my mom looked at me and she kind of threw up her hands and she's like, Emily, you're on your own kid, figure it out. And I didn't figure it out probably until I was in college, about two years into college. First of all, I got into classes that I really liked. So that was helpful. That makes a difference, yeah. I was no longer forced to go through all of these other classes I just didn't really care about and had a lot of mundane work and everything else. But also everything kind of started to click a little bit more where it wasn't as much of a struggle. And I think that having also that experience, at least from a parenting perspective, helps me to let go of some of those things with my own kids and like, they'll get there. I reflect back on my own experiences and know, I was like, yeah, I was a hot mess too at that age, but you can get there. You just have to kind of give it that space and time. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, awesome. Well, I just have a few of the questions that we ask everybody on this podcast. Tell us about one professional achievement that you're the most proud of. You know, it's hard because I'm proud of a lot of things. I think probably being able to write my first book. was probably a real accomplishment, because I don't know that I thought I was going to be able to do that, even though I always wanted to. And I think the other thing is, starting my counseling practice, when I first started it, it was just me, but I really went out and built a community and a reputation, and now it's grown, and I've got seven other clinicians who work here with me in our practice, and so that's a pretty cool thing that I'm really proud of. Yeah, 100%. And then on the flip side, is there a professional failure that embarrasses you and how have you dealt with that? That's an interesting question and kind of reflecting on it, it's hard for me to think about anything that was really public that was embarrassing, but I will tell you the best example of this that I can come up with is when I first started in my counseling practice, I would have clients who I was working with, who would- kind of ghost me, right? Like they would cancel an appointment or they would no show. And then I just wouldn't ever hear from them again. And I would really kind of internalize that and kind of obsess and ruminate on it. Like, what did I do wrong? Am I not doing a good job? Is there something, you know, whatever. But the way that I've come through that is at this point, I've been able to shift that and reframe it. And if it gets to that point, the way I frame it in my mind is like, they're either doing well, that's usually my go to some, they're doing well, they don't need counseling right now. That's awesome that they don't need it. or they're not ready for it, that's okay too, or I wasn't a good fit for them and that's all right because I know that counseling, you have to find someone whose personality fits with you. So to me, it was one of those things that I was very worried about and felt shameful about like that I was not good enough, but I've been able to kind of reframe that and not let it bother me quite so much because that can feel like a real personal rejection. Oh yeah, that rejection sensitivity comes in hard. Yeah, absolutely. When someone doesn't show it, yeah. And so what is your favorite go-to dopamine activity? For what it's worth, and I don't have enough time to do it, and I neglect it, but I really do love to work out. I get such a boost, and I know that probably it's one of those items of self-care that helps me more than anything. I mean, it helps me focus, it helps my mood. I neglect it frequently, but when I think about what are the things that I really enjoy doing, anytime I have the time, that's kind of what I wanna do. just getting outdoors. I'm hoping right now I'm in the process of trying to take a few things off of my plate so that I can have more time for that. Yeah. The key is not to add more. You're like, oh, look at my plate, it's so empty. Yeah. You know me too well. It's so tempting. So if you had an ADHD life motto, could just be one of many for you, what would that be? So keep in mind, so this is some of my cynical sense of humor a little bit. But one of the things that I often say is that, The secret to happiness is lowered expectations. Because I can be such a perfectionist and an idealist, but if you are constantly looking for perfection, you are always going to be disappointed. Yeah. I'm not saying have no expectations. I'm just saying have realistic expectations. But I joke about it because it sounds really terrible. The secret to happiness is lowered expectations, but for what it's worth, it's kind of true. So. Yeah, that definitely makes a difference, yeah. So. That would be my motto. Awesome. I love that. I love the motto question we just learned so much about. Yes. We've got everybody doing it. It's always so different. I love it. Well, thank you so much, Emily, for taking the time to share your story and your ADHD skills with us today. Where can people find out more about you and what you do? Yeah, absolutely. Check out the podcast. It's the Neurodiversity Podcast. You can find it anywhere. And you can find me on Twitter in most places as EmilyKircherMorris. Or I think on Twitter, my handle is EmilyKM_LPC. And yeah, I'd love to connect and hopefully people can find some great resources, especially if they're in that parenting journey. The podcast has a lot of great resources for that as well. Definitely. Well, thanks so much. It's been really wonderful to have you on. Love the conversation. Oh, thanks so much, Skye. Great conversation, thank you. 

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