Hi, we are the ADHD Skills Lab podcast. My name is Skye. And my name is Sarah. And we will be your hosts, chatting to you about practical ADHD strategies you can use, the research behind some of these strategies, as well as interviewing other professionals with ADHD about how they've developed skills and working through struggles in their lives. You might know us from Unconventional Organization, where we talk about this kind of stuff all day long. So we're super excited to have you along and we're going to chat through it together. 

So today I'm speaking with someone you may already be familiar with because he is a well-known figure in the ADHD podcasting space. Will Curb is the founder of the podcast Hacking Your ADHD, a wonderful space to learn about ADHD strategies that always ends with a moment of dad, which I really love. He worked as a real estate agent, manager of a professional ultimate frisbee team before starting his podcast in 2019. Will identifies as non-binary and lives with his wife and two children and loves frisbee, building Lego and playing board games. So welcome Will. It's really great to have you on the ADHD skills lab. Yeah. So glad to be here. It's fun to be on this side of the microphone as you've been on hacking your ADHD and have always had great conversations with you there. So I'm excited to have one here. Yeah, no, I really appreciate it. And yeah, Will was one of the first people I spoke to about starting a podcast. So. A lot of the advice came from this. So tell me a little bit about where are you based in the world currently? I'm in Washington state in a little town called Bonnie lakes. Got a great view of Mount Rainier and it's really nice up here. I got lots of trees and I can get outside real easily. So it's great for me. Nice, nice. And I saw you were born in Hawaii. Yeah, one of the things that I was like. because I specifically had to write my bio for this because I'm like, oh, I don't have, I have a very old one that is not very good. I'll try and update this. And I was like, oh, okay, Big Island and New Zealand. And I'm like, oh, both small islands, Big Island much smaller despite the name Big, New Zealand's about 15 times larger, I think, or something like that. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, sometimes they do get kind of, I wouldn't say compared, but you know, when you talk about America, I'm like, oh, that's. totally different when you talk about Hawaii. I'm like, oh yeah, that feels more familiar. Yeah, definitely. That's very, very cool. So from one beautiful space to another. What was your diagnosis experience like? Take us through, were you diagnosed as a child? Were you diagnosed later in life? I was diagnosed in 2011, so I think that makes me 23. Then after I've graduated college, but not in very late diagnosis, because I've talked to lots of people that are like, getting their diagnosis in 50 or older and that's completely different experience, but definitely not as a kid either. Yeah, you were outside of the schooling system or at least the high schooling system at that point. Yeah, I think I did this like a year after I graduated college. What prompted you to get that diagnosis at that time? Well, I have three siblings, two of them younger who were through my dad's second marriage. They were both diagnosed with ADHD. So it was like something like, okay, I know this is. in this part of my family. And then my older sister got diagnosed and I was like, I've heard it's genetic. I don't know that much about ADHD at that point, but I go in and I'm like, I'm going to go find out more about this. You know, maybe that can kind of explain some of the stuff that's going on. Of course, at that time I have more of a pop culture definition of ADHD. I don't stand the further ramifications of what having ADHD means at that time. And so do get that diagnosis, but it's something where I just start taking medication for it, but I don't do that much else. Yeah, that's really interesting. Did you, I guess when you got diagnosed, cause you were sort of not necessarily looking for it, it kind of happened more. So what was your experience like realizing that you had it? Was it something you were like, Oh, that makes a lot of sense or was it something that was a real surprise for you? It certainly made sense to me. One of the questions I remember my clinician asking me is like, well, do you think you have ADHD? And me being like, I have no idea if this is how other people's brains work. This is how my brain works, it's my only experience. And that question then prompted me to go, but do I think like other people? Typically, no, I'm always been kind of on the outside of the typical problem solving, my ability to focus on things. And so I was like, yeah, I guess I don't really think like other people. I always kind of viewed myself as being different, but I thought of that from when I was a young kid, I was diagnosed with dyslexia. And so I was like, oh, that's... That's why I'm there. It is. Yeah. And a lot of people I think get diagnosed with both. I went in for dyslexia when I was being diagnosed and came out with ADHD and still to this day, it's sort of a question mark whether dyslexia was there as well, but definitely a common combination. I remember hearing one person telling me that if you get diagnosed with either ADHD or dyslexia, you should go ahead and get tested for the other one because they're so commonly. Yeah, it is really, really interesting. I work with so many clients who have both the point where it's almost like an expectation, not an expectation, but you know, there's sort of a, an understanding that there might be some, you know, some overlap there specifically. Yeah. That's so interesting. So you went from getting this diagnosis to eventually nine years later or eight years later, starting your own podcast. What was that transition? Cause that's quite a big. And especially at the time, I don't know how many ADHD podcasts were around. There were a number at that point, but it was certainly fewer. First I worked with the professional Frisbee team and that was like a lot like startup work. So it was very like, I got a lot of stuff done, but then I was like working till like 11 PM at night, waking up early to make phone calls and stuff. And it was like that drove me. And then we'd have our off season. I'd completely crash, couldn't get anything done. And after... the league closed down, I ended up going to start my own Frisbee podcast, which was something I had wanted to do with the league, but that never worked out. And while working on that, I just found it so hard to get stuff done. I was burnt out from all my other work. And I remember I was texting with a friend and I was like, I'm so lazy, blah, can't do anything. Or maybe it's just my ADHD. And that last line I'm like, huh, maybe it is my ADHD. And so then I started like, gave yourself that little out at the end. Yeah. And then I was like, maybe I should look into that a little bit more. Yep. Cause even though I was taking medication, I wasn't good about taking it every day. And so that was my zoom like, oh, if I just took this regularly, I'd be great. And I'm like, but I can't do that because of my ADHD. And so then I started going on Reddit, watching YouTube videos. Like I saw stuff from like Jessica McCabe was one of the first people I saw. It was her. How to ADHD and fantastic stuff. And I was like, Man, I would really love to see stuff like hers, but on a podcast so I could listen to it while I'm walking and doing all this other stuff. And I did find some ADHD podcasts I enjoyed, but I was like, I want something short form. So I was like, well, I like podcasting. I know the steps to make this happen. I know what I don't like in podcasting, I know what I do, and I know all the basics to have a jumping off point. I don't have to do any research to get into it again. Yeah, no, definitely. I'm really curious, actually, this is... More of a question for me. Did you hire an editor right off the bat in the second time round, or did you edit your own podcasts? I edited my own podcasts for two years. Wow. It's commitment. Yeah. Then I had, I got cold emailed about an editor and I was like, it was right at the time I was wanting to look for one. And so I was like, okay, I'll meet it with you. Worked out was fantastic. I was just like, oh, having another so nice. He has gone on to do some other stuff and I have a new editor and I'm just like, For my workflow, it works so much nicer for me. So much better. It gives me a deadline that I have to get episodes to the editor by. And so then I have like, well, if I don't have this to Stephen by Thursday, then I'm not going to get it before the weekend. So I have artificial deadlines that really help. During the pandemic, there were episodes that I edited that went out like an hour later. Yeah, no, definitely. Well, you do a lot of solo podcast episodes as well, which I think is... It's very brave. I think I would destroy all with the motivation and everything around doing those sort of solo episodes. You've talked to obviously so many people with ADHD. You've had so many different people on with different strategies. What are the strategies now that you've done so many podcast episodes that really stand out to you and maybe you specifically use when it comes to ADHD? The first thing that comes to mind is putting less on my plate because I get about the same amount of work done. I just feel a lot less guilty about how much I'm taking on, which increases my overall mental health. And then I do end up doing more stuff because I'm like, oh yeah, I don't feel bad about myself because I didn't do the 12 items on my to-do list. Yeah. No, that's a really good point. You must have had some really interesting conversations with different people. Is there anything else that's kind of stood out to you from your time podcasting? The things that have really stood out are also just embracing that my ADHD encompasses my entire being, I'm like, I'm not just partially ADHD here or there. And so looking at how to problem solve through that lens of like, Oh, this is an ADHD problem. Let's try come at this from less judgment, come at it with curiosity. If I can be like, Oh, this is really hard for me to do. And then go, okay, but why? And then be like, well, I don't have any motivation to do it. I'm like, okay, well, I don't have motivation. Having that curiosity behind then allows me to apply the strategies that really help where I'm like, okay, I'm just. Washing the dishes is a totally low dopamine thing, and I need to, you know, listen to a podcast, listen to music, put on a timer or something for that. People who listen to my podcast will know that I have lots of struggles with laundry, but uh... We all do. That's for sure. Yeah. That has become lessened that I just don't fold my clothes anymore. I just have bins that I toss them in. And that works well for me since I don't have things that wrinkle well. Wrinkle stuff does still have to be dealt with in a different way, but like my general clothes, I can just be like, okay, these just get tossed into these bins. I don't need to worry about folding them. I don't have to hang them up. And I don't have to do it all at once. I can just sit down and be like, okay, toss these from the things that I've done, 10 things to close, can go on to the next thing. Yeah, 100%, 100%. It is interesting what you say about kind of a lot of ADHD strategies from what you've said are about managing your expectations of what you're going to do because one of the things that often comes up in coaching is this idea of this fictional, I'll say, neurotypical person who is nailing it. It's almost like following you alongside your day while you're like only getting three tasks done or not folding the laundry the way it's supposed to be folded. They probably got up at five and they did this, they did this, and I'm wondering if that... if you've ever had that experience or if you've ever had to kind of contend with that both as an individual, but then also as a person, obviously helping other people on podcasts. Absolutely. The amount we go with the, what I should be doing is I've done an entire episode on not using the word should because it's so detrimental to how we operate. And this is a great other place to be stick with that curiosity is like, Oh, I should be doing this and go, well, why? That's what I'm supposed to be doing. Okay. But why? And I go, Oh, I don't have good answers anymore. And then if I shouldn't be, what could I be doing? What could, how can I look at this differently to try and get myself to do things that I want to do? Yeah, no, exactly, exactly. And I think it is interesting because often it's about letting go of that should in order to find the things you want to do or you could do, but there is that sense of letting go of those expectations around what other people are. doing. So I guess maybe my follow up question for this is, and we're going fully off script, for those of you who are interested, is how do you then deal with people's judgment around that? Or maybe not so much judgment, but the feeling of the potential of people's judgment? Because you know, we can say things and I often say things like, just don't fold your clothes or do things in a different way. But then you have family who might be helping you or you have workplaces and how do you manage that kind of expectations? Well, I mean, personally, I come from a place of extreme leverage here where I have family that understands I don't have to deal with that. I work from home. I have my own things other than like I do worry about some of the things like I got stuff for talking with you today. You like an hour before the show, you know, like I'm like, whoops, I've had two weeks to turn this in. Turn it in now. Turn it in like it's an assignment. Yeah. A lot of the times our judgments are more relegated to ourselves, but there are plenty of examples of people being not nice about ADHD symptoms. Like, I recently saw a lot of conversation online about time blindness and how people are like, oh, you should just use alarms or just get over it. And it's like, I wish it was that simple. Yeah, 100%. Too many alarms suck. Oh, yes. It's like it. It sucks and it does not work. If you go through your morning routine and you have nine alarms to get through the nine, that's too many. It's not going to help you. And if you get behind on anything, then everything's out. Yeah. A hundred percent. There's nothing like looking at five alarms and just going, I don't know what these are for, but I know I'm behind on all of them, so we're just turning those off. Yeah. And so there is just like, have to just accept some people are going to be crappy to you about. your ADHD as much as I would like it not to be the case. There are people that will not understand. ADHD is a disability and it's an invisible one. So people, they go, just get over your executive dysfunction. Doesn't work like that as much as I would like it to. The just and the shoulds come back. Yeah. Come back again. Yeah. No. Well, it's interesting because you obviously, it's similar to me. You have decided to be open about your ADHD in a public space. How did you decide to do that? And have you ever regretted it in any way? You know, how's that been for you? Well, in typical ADHD fashion, it was impulsive. I did not think about it at all. I have not regretted it because, I mean, I've had no real blowback on it. The few conversations I've had with people that involve the negative aspects, see people like, oh, yeah, ADHD isn't real, or it's a way for pharmaceutical companies to sell more pills or something, it's been largely stuff I can brush off. Because it's not. I know it's not directed at me, that's just kind of how some people feel. And yeah, it's again, something I come from with a good sense of privilege because, yeah, I don't get that kind of blowback because I have classical male looks, you know, I'm tall, I get things done relatively well. And it's, I could be like, oh yeah, I have this successful podcast and people are like, oh yeah, you do so much. And I'm like, yeah, I could do so much more though. Yeah, you're like, don't look at the pile. It's fine. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. 

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And one of the things that you specifically wanted to talk to you about today was this idea of, with ADHD, the idea of energy management and time management. Because I know that's something that you've been talking about and thinking about quite a lot. as part of developing with ADHD and developing those strategies and obviously running your own podcasts. So what have your experiences been around that? Yeah, this has been a really fascinating area for me to dive into because there's not a lot written about energy management. When you Google it, you get stuff about power plants. So not helpful usually. Sometimes. Yeah. What I found is that I'm not actually all that bad at time management. I can go look at my planner, write a bunch of things down and be like, yeah, that all fits in here. I don't have particularly bad time blindness. So I don't completely over schedule my days in terms of how much time I have or don't have, but what I do run into is that I can't actually do stuff in the a lot of time that I have. I will be like, this was supposed to only take me an hour, but it took me two hours. not because of the actual amount of time it took, but because I needed to get into it. I wasn't motivated at first. I had to go take a walk to get myself going. And okay, this took so much longer than I wanted it to. And it's not just this aspect of time management that I wanted to look at. I wanted to look at how to manage my energy so that when I put stuff into my calendar, I'm going to have the energy to do it. And as I was looking through these things, I found some ideas around... different ways we can view our energy. We have like our physical energy, which is how much we sleep, what we're eating, getting exercise, just a very straightforward, like this is energy. But then we also have like our mental energy, which comes in with brain fog and being focused because obviously we can only stay focused for so long before. Oh, there's something else we want to look at, but this also ties in with our emotional energy. We have like motivation. And if you had a fight with your spouse or something before going to work, it's going to be much harder to. keep focused and do stuff. You can really feel drained from your emotions or really energized too, if it's something really exciting. And then I had this force aspect that I've been going with spiritual energy, not in a religious sense, but more like the power of the human spirit. How much spirit do you have today? Yeah, it's when you're aligned with your values and you're doing stuff you wanna do. Yeah. With ADHD, it's so important that you're doing stuff that you want to be doing. And then, I'm sure as people have been listening to them and then they can like see the connection of like, oh yeah, when I'm have like low emotional energy, I also have low physical energy. They all connect in weird ways, even though there's these subcategories are also just one idea of energy too. Yeah, no, that's a really interesting concept. I am curious now, you know, when we talk about physical energy, often people say, well, I'm really tired most of the time at this time of the day and I'm really awake at this time of the day. With all those other kinds of energies, do you have particular times of days or particular things that mean that you have more energy and therefore you're more likely to do certain kinds of things throughout a daily routine? Yeah, we all have our circadian rhythm that most of us have heard of, which is our like day night cycle and we can kind of go, okay, we have higher energy a couple hours after waking up, lower energy midday, maybe a spike in the evening and then another dip right before we go to bed. And it's important to note that cycle also continues while we're sleeping. And that affects our REM cycle and our deep sleep cycle. But along with these, we also have these things called ultradian rhythms, which are like 90 minute cycles that go along with these when we have a dip in our ultradian cycle and our circadian cycle. That's when we got our like four o'clock afternoon thing where I'm like, I need to nap, I cannot get off the couch. So yeah, I find like 10 AM I probably have the most energy. It's something I've mapped out with some apps to like be like, okay, this is when I woke up when I should have the most energy. Not always the case. Bad sleep is going to affect that, but having that kind of thing, I'm like, okay, this is the best time for me to schedule my creative work. It's when I want to do my writing, not when I want to do editing, cause that's not creative for me, but doing writing, really getting into the creation aspect of things is when I have the most energy. That's what I want to do. When I'm low. when I want to be taking a break. I'm fortunate enough that I can just be like, oh yeah, it's this time of day I can just kind of goof off now and that's fine. And that's actually a productive thing for me to do. Although I am trying to get myself away from the words of productive and unproductive, that doesn't need to be the definition of why I'm doing something. It's more about do I feel good? Do I not feel good doing things during these times? There's so much baggage with productivity. Oh yeah. Oh, there's books of baggage. Books on books. Yeah, and I don't want to come off being like, oh, here's a way to be more productive. I'm like, no, this is a way to be more in tune with yourself so that you feel good more of the time. That is really interesting. And one of the things you said, which I think is really resonated with me was sometimes things take a really long time. And one of those things, you know, with energy management is if you if you decide to do something at a time when your emotional energy and your physical energy and a couple of other energies that would work for this particular activity are aligned, you're more likely to do it well, to be present, to need less transition time. That in the spirit of not focusing so much on productivity, it doesn't just mean work. It could even be spending time with your kids. There's certain times of the day when I'm definitely more present and focused on that as well. Is this something that you've thought about as part of the energy conversation? Yeah, absolutely. And especially with the productivity side, because it is awful to think that I would only give my unproductive time to my family. Yeah. That's a gross feeling. When I go, oh, yeah, so I'm just going to want to lie on the couch and the kids can walk on my back or something. No, I want to be like the best dad I can be when I'm with them. So it's, of course, going to be a balancing act, you know. They get off school when I'm probably at a lower energy time. But you know, okay, how can I counteract that? What are some things I can do to... feel good when I'm around them. One of the things that is very true with the energy management is energy tends to follow energy. So if you can get yourself up to do something, it will help with that. So before we started talking on this podcast, I went for a short walk around my neighborhood because I knew getting out in sunlight, getting movement, having some water would be all good things to prepare myself to be more present during this and less likely to look over and be like, what is that? Start reading something on the other street or... Yeah, no, 100%. And the research would back you up on that in terms of walking, sort of helping us with our working memory and other things we need to have online. Yeah, so I guess this conversation that you're having at the moment about energy and time and how those two things connect, sounds like it's very much still a developing conversation. What advice would you give to other people who are trying to manage their life and they're struggling with? feeling like they're not doing things in the way that they could do. Maybe they have limited ability to do that, although now obviously working from home, we have a bit more ability, which is quite cool. What advice would you give to people who wanna get started in this concept? Well, to echo what I was saying earlier, is first step is always doing less, or putting less on your plate when you can. Obviously, sometimes we can't do that because I cannot just offload a lot of my responsibilities as a parent. It's like, Yeah, I'm still gonna have to do all that stuff regardless. But when I look at my weekend plans with my kids, I go, okay, I want to do more things that are going to be big ticket winners and fewer low wins. And how can I schedule that so that we're both going to be able to do that, make sure they still get naps in whatever it takes to do that, get my own nap in. Important. Yeah. And then I was thinking about this while I was doing some planning earlier this morning. I'm like, I had started doing my planning and then I was like, Oh, I need to look at what's on my schedule for the week already because I already have a bunch of stuff. I'm not thinking about that while I'm putting new things on my schedule and knowing what's on my schedule being like, okay, how can I add things without putting too much on my plate? How can I make sure that, you know, I have a bunch of stuff tomorrow that's going to be kind of more emotional knowing I can't schedule stuff after that. That's going to need focus. Can I do some low ticket items then? Or. Plan breaks. Can I make sure that I'm doing the stuff that I absolutely know I need to have to do first thing in the morning so that it gets done before I have any of these drains on me? Yeah, no, definitely. Definitely. And I guess my other question is what about those people who are like, but I want to do everything because there's always that thing with ADHD where they're like, no, I, I can do 10 things in one day. You don't, you don't understand. And I want to like, what would you. advice be for those people who are struggling with that concept of doing less, basically? Everything I say yes to is a no to something else. There is literally limited time. Starting with time management is a great place here because once I really started blocking my time, writing it down in my desk, I was like, oh, I can't actually jam anything more in here without taking stuff out. There's a limit to my energy, knowing that, yes, sometimes I can push through, but every time I push through, I am... pulling from my reserves that let me push through more in the future. Burnout is a very real thing. If I push through all the time, I'm going to crash eventually. And then I'm not going to get anything I want done. Yeah, no, a hundred percent. And it's such a, it's such a thing you have to focus on with ADHD because burnout can become a cycle rather than a thing that happens maybe once or twice in your lifetime when you have ADHD for sure. One of the big realizations for burnout for me is that it is not about a vacation. that you need, it is about revamping your entire system so that you are not chronically putting yourself into those positions where you're just worn down. Yeah, no, 100%. Awesome. Well, I have a few just general ADHD lab questions that we ask everybody. So tell me a little bit about one professional achievement that you're the most proud of. We probably have to be starting the podcast and being like, yeah, it is done. way better than I ever imagined. I look at the numbers and I'm like, I nearly 5 million downloads. That feels unreal. I'm like, that's, it's really hard to top that for me. Yeah. No, I think that's, I mean, that's what I would put down. I think that's pretty awesome for sure. And then conversely, do you have a professional failure that has embarrassed you in the past? You know, how, how did you deal with that? So many. We'll go for my first podcast. I recorded my last. interview in June and I posted that episode in November and I dealt with it at the time by just kind of sweeping it under the rug and not acknowledging that it's just happened nobody's gonna notice if I just don't say anything. Yeah, and Probably not the best way to deal with it because I mean at that point like I do I wasn't gonna continue so why was I still posting it and that was a lot of the ADHD shame being like I need to do this because I said I was gonna do it but at that point, I don't know that I needed to do anything other than be like, hey, I'm done. Sorry that I recorded this with you and it's not coming out, but it's how it goes sometimes. Yeah, definitely. I think it can be really tough when you get stuck in like the shame spiral of ADHD. I know a lot of people have had that experience where something's already late and you have now missed the window for having a reasonable discussion about that. And now this discussion feels unreasonable, but you still need to have it. but that's a lot. That's definitely something that we talk about all the time. I've definitely experienced as well as navigating that professional space with ADHD. Well, thanks for sharing that because I always ask that question because it can be easy if you're on a podcast, you're like, these are the great things I've done, and these are all the skills I have, and everybody says this. They're like, you want to list my failures and embarrassments? We have a lot. We just don't necessarily talk about them all the time. Yeah. Well, and I can also look at that entire podcast was a big stinker. It did not work. It took a lot of time, did not have a big audience. And having done it, prepared me to do something else that I really liked doing. So it ended up being a great thing to do, even though at the time and shortly after it just felt awful. Yeah. Which I think is so important. I mean, I've definitely had that experience as well, where you're like, well, that didn't work, but now I know what to do for the next one. Even though sometimes you need a break. or sometimes you just jump straight in. It really depends on the situation. Yeah. What about your favorite dopamine activity? We've discussed a few at the top of the podcast. What would you say? I really like doing some stuff with Legos and there are some sets that are just so much fun to have worked with. I did the Starry Night one that I was looking at today still and I'm like, I still feel good about having put that together because it's just so cool. Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. No, I really like that stuff. I recently... This is going to sound really weird. I recently got into Warhammer. Building Warhammer pieces. Nice. Because it's very similar. It kind of has that similar vibe to Legos. It is very fun, very relaxing activity to do something with your hands while you're listening to something. Definitely. Okay. So if you had an ADHD motto, what would it be? It doesn't have to be the only motto you'd ever have, but just one of them. Do what works with your brain. Everyone has their own flavor of ADHD with their own comorbidities. it's really easy to get stuck in the shoulds and looking at the imaginary neurotypical or even imaginary other person that, you know, maybe still has ADHD, but still in so much more and going, Oh, I just need to do what works for me. I can do what works for me. That's best. We want to stay out of productivity. Want to go, what makes me feel good? What makes me feel happy about my life? Yeah. Well, thanks so much for taking the time to share your ADHD story and your skills with us today. Where can people find out about you and what you do? You can find any podcast player, Hacking Your ADHD. The website is hackingyouradhd.com. I have no specific social media right now. I'm in between trying to figure out where I'd wanna land and have not found something specific there yet. Yeah, well, your podcast is great. So just checking that out. I highly, highly recommend. Yeah, thanks so much, Will. Thanks for coming on. Thank you. 

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