Learn talking strategies with an ADHD couple

I decided that I didn't have ADHD and didn't need medication. The diagnosis just made everything make more sense in hindsight. They were so effective at getting us to do routines for a month. I still have a lot of regret of wishing I could have done way better, way earlier if I got that diagnosis. I think there's a very creative component to living with ADHD. 

We actually have a couple with ADHD, which is very exciting. It's the first time chatting to a couple with ADHD. So Shoda and Ollie are a married couple who both have ADHD and host a podcast called Mindfully ADHD, where they try different strategies and then come back the following week to talk shop and see how it went. Very similar to the troubleshooting that we do, actually. So it's cool to see. So welcome. It's great to have you both on the ADHD Skills Lab. It's so good to be here. Yeah. I feel like we haven't actually recorded in a while, so it's kind of nice to get back into recording. Yeah. Well, it's really, really wonderful to have you here. So let's start by going with where are you based? So we are now based in London, but when we started the podcast and where we met was Dubai, actually, we moved over. We moved over here because I'm doing a. doctorate in counseling psychology and all it just has to come because we're married. It's the rules. That's how. Absolutely. So how are you finding that transition to the UK? Oh, for me or? I mean, for both of you. I was going to say that mental health in Dubai is quite not as developed as mental health in London. So. I think a lot of the jobs they have primarily in Dubai are in autism, autism spectrum disorder, or if you have children with ADHD because we used to work with children when we were in Dubai, the only time you'd really see ADHD is if it was a co-morbidity. So it's, yeah. It's quite different. Yeah. The facilities for ADHD aren't as developed as autism than when compared to the UK. And I think in terms of transition, that's been something that has come up a lot. when we're looking for work and just existing here, the way that mental health is treated and looked at is so different. And in terms of personal transition, well, it's been hard. I think that even just the weather is so different. Moving from a desert to a place that has very distinct seasons and no air conditioning is disconcerting. Yeah, yeah, I heard about that. They've got radiators in the UK, but no air conditioning. Yeah, everyone always argues about us about air conditioning because in Dubai, everyone has air conditioning. You kind of would die without it, but you kind of feel the heat more here than you do in the desert. Oh, that's so interesting. That's so interesting. Yeah, in New Zealand, we have a lot of heat pumps. So sort of air conditioning that also doubles as, you know, warming. So... Yeah, it is interesting, but I'm not going to get into it. I don't know enough about the air conditioner. I'm not going to join the air conditioning debate in the UK. It would be the most controversial thing we've ever done. Fair enough. Tell me a little bit about your ADHD journeys to diagnosis. Did they overlap? Did one person connect the other? How did it go? Our journeys are quite different. I was diagnosed when I was six years old. Both of us grew up in Dubai and as Ollie was saying, ADHD wasn't even a thing. I mean, everywhere in the nineties, it was a little bit vague, but my mom is actually a near developmental pediatrician and she caught it. So I was diagnosed when I was six and I started medication when I was eight and she actually caught it in Ollie after we got married, not after we got married, but after we started to date. Yeah, I only got diagnosed when I was 24. So it was quite different. Yeah. Did you find that was, you know, finding out that you had ADHD quite young, especially in a space where that wasn't the case for a lot of people. Do you find that that's changed your journeys, um, in terms of how you process and understand your ADHD symptoms or has it been about the same? Because you will have had a lot longer living with the concept of being ADHD shorter than Olly would have. Yeah, it's really interesting because my entire professional life was about neurodiversity and my mom made it such an important part of our lives. It was something that was always there and present, but I didn't really accept that I had ADHD until I was 30. I... think that it's very easy to, especially as a child, not to understand what's going on. Also, there weren't as many tools back then. We didn't have the same understanding that we do now. And ADHD was so much about school and kind of ignored all the other things that ADHD comes with, like all the social stuff, emotional dysregulation, all of that. It was not part of the conversation. And they said, oh, she has a very high IQ. so she can push through the ADHD rather than try to find ways to deal with it. And there really was a big emphasis on IQ tests as well. Like, I don't remember how many IQ tests I must have had to go through. And I think I almost got an early, well, an earlier diagnosis when I was in middle school. But they said like, oh, no, you know, IQ is fine, you know, you need to try harder. And then I actually ended up finding that old report and then using that as well as like an additional diagnosis, like interviews and stuff, I actually brought the additional report to help get a diagnosis like years and years later. Yeah. Wow. That is interesting. There seems to be a really big emphasis on intelligence and coming back to academia after all these years, it's really difficult to reconceptualize old patterns in terms of ADHD. And there's a lot of internalized ableism that comes with doing essays and things. I think that's actually something in our relationship that's quite important for us to talk about, is each other putting our internalized ableism on the other person. So I should be able to do these things, so should you, even though I know with ADHD it's a complication, like doing the dishes and laundry. Yeah. Yeah, definitely, definitely. One person's easy task is another person's like 2.5 working day task for sure. Yeah. That's kind of how we've divided our whole household is pretty much just like what tasks are easy. It's easy for me to do the dishes, but then she absolutely hates it and then she can do the laundry and I just get confused with all the different systems that are right. That's interesting. Do you find with the dishes, is there a sensory component to that? Because I know for some people that's the case. I was going to say slimy, wet food is just, it's not it for me. Which is weird because you love slime. I like slime, but not in the food. When the food gets wet, I just, I don't even want to go near the sink and put things into the dishwasher. Whereas Ollie doesn't seem to mind as much and I'd clean the toilet before doing dishes. Yeah, wow, that's serious. I'm like, yeah, that's very interesting. So in terms of your working in the mental health space, do you find now that you're working with people who have ADHD as part of that, or is it not really part of what you do? I don't get to choose unfortunately, but I do have a few clients. I've had a few clients with ADHD and with autism diagnosis. And what's been really interesting is it can be really difficult to isolate and then communicate your feelings or what's happening in your internal world. And a lot of us who are neurodivergent have very rich internal world, and we are quite self-aware, but it can be really difficult to communicate that, especially in a therapeutic setting where you are on the spot, you might be in an office with a light that you can hear. and have like all those sensory components. Likes do. Yeah, definitely, definitely. It's really interesting to work with people with those issues because the type and kind of style of therapy is different. I find a lot of times psychoeducation is more important because then they are able to take what they learn in therapy and... apply it to their own internal world instead of the therapist kind of being there to help them identify it. I find it really rewarding and interesting to work with people with ADHD. It's also really important for me to remember that everyone's experience is vastly different because it's so easy to over identify being like, oh yeah, no, I have that too. But the way they experience it is so different from the way I experience it. Yeah, definitely. Obviously you guys are a couple with ADHD, which isn't actually that unusual. I'm actually part of a partnership with ADHD as well. And I know a lot of people are, but what's unusual is that you both are willing to talk about it in a public setting. Which I think is a bit more, is usually not both of you happy to be on the internet. So tell me a little bit, I guess, what is your experience of being a couple with ADHD in terms of the practical day to day. So how you guys, you talked about sharing chores, do you lean on each other for different tasks? Do you find you have a different strategy because you are a couple both in good and bad ways? I think we do tend to scaffold each other a lot, but I think our biggest difference is in transition time that it takes me a lot longer to transition to different tasks. If when I start a task, I wanna be focused on that, and when I get interrupted, it's really hard to get back into it. So I usually need a larger amount or I need to be told how much, like maybe 20 minutes and have a timer to try and change into different activities. And I'm very impatient. In terms of public space, I really appreciate the podcast. And one of the reasons that I think it was so helpful for us is that you're forced to talk about your stuff in a light, happy way, which reduces RSD. rejection sensitive dysphoria. I think that that's something both of us experience often. And one of the really nice things about both of us having ADHD and working within a professional space is the shared language. I can tell Oli that I'm experiencing RSD because you're looking at your phone and not at me and understand that they need to look at their phone in order to concentrate on what I'm saying, but also holds the space. for the fact that it is making me feel rejected or uncomfortable. And just having that shared vocabulary can be really useful in communication. Yeah, that's a good point. It also helps that we both know when we're, or we just say when we're emotionally dysregulated, or we know we have to go off into separate areas and communicate that and say like, we need to regulate for a couple of minutes and then go back and then... sort of give us like a buffering time when we do have an argument, so we actually can regulate. Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. The other thing in terms of what you're saying, I mean, obviously you're both very different, but if you both have ADHD, it's not just that you have a shared vocabulary, it's also that you have a shared mental model. It's a bit easier to model each other than it might be if you had a neurotypical spouse, basically. I think that there is a shared understanding of process. I think I resonate with mental model because it then becomes easier for us to identify when someone is, when the other is struggling with something. I think where it gets complicated is with internalized ableism and with the things that our parents used to do to us. So like, if you can see that your partner is having difficulty. paying a bill or for me like to do an assignment. The other one takes on the role of parenting a little bit sometimes, and I think that can be quite challenging with both of us having ADHD. But I think because of that shared understanding, there is a lot more empathy. Yeah, that's a good point. Could you quickly define internalized ableism in terms of the context just for those who might not know what it means? I think it's different for different people. But there are certain things with ADHD that I cannot do in the way that the instruction manual tells you to do. For example, when someone says study, a lot of people have a mental model or a schema of thinking that you have to sit at a desk and read your book and highlight and then take notes. Whereas for me, it's watching YouTube videos and consuming media as verociously as I can. the internalized ableism will be telling me that that's wrong and I have to do it in the way that is written and instructed. And that can be applied to a lot of different areas, including, but not limited to, I need to clean the house now and they're not cleaning the house with me and what can I do to fix that? And then nag, and then have feelings about it. And then Oli might get really triggered by that. Yeah, because it's really difficult because it's hard to scaffold each other because it's really hard to go between that line of telling someone to do something, especially if it's something you're struggling with. And I think that ableism of no, I should be able to do that. I need help. I think it's we've taken a long time to being able to accept help from each other. And I think the podcast actually helped us do that. And I think that's actually helped in my ADHD diagnosis, because Shota helped me with that, because she saw how much I was struggling during my masters with things like just sending emails and things like that. And it was just really small tasks. And it's sort of that aspect, I think, even in my diagnosis, I think you helped me a lot. Yeah. And when I'm struggling to get motivated, Oli will gamify it or look back through the podcast and like all the different strategies that we've tried and be like, oh, I remember this was important for you. Why don't we try that? I think the thing that helped the most is just trying to make the task as small as possible in order to start it. I think that was the most successful thing for us. Yeah. So breaking it down and like, so that you can kind of create single small actionable tasks. Yeah. 

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That actually takes me back to a question I did want to ask. Obviously you guys on your podcast test and try a bunch of ADHD strategies. I'd love to know which one you found the most difficult, you know, which one of you found the hardest to crack basically. I think broadly for me, the most difficult series was the sleep one, but more broadly it's maintaining any sort of routine. I find that to be the most difficult and a lot of the strategies where they fall down is they all sort of rely on having a routine to do something or remembering to do something. And so that mechanism is what feels the most difficult. I think the things that we've kept have been the things that don't involve a routine that can just be picked up. Can you give me some examples? For me to sleep one was the most difficult because the majority of the research is sleep hygiene. And I already have a very extensive, very compulsive nighttime routine that I procrastinate doing because I can't sleep without doing it and it's tedious to do it. So I struggled a lot with that and where I came out at the other end was just accepting that some nights I'm not going to sleep well and that's okay. taking away the sort of pressure of if you don't sleep well, then everything's gonna go to hell. That's not true. It's most days I can manage, and there will be some days that I sleep really well, and there will be some days that I don't sleep at all. And coming up with strategies to support that was the learning from the podcast rather than the strategies themselves. Yeah, so it was supporting the executive functioning difficulties because we know from the research that If you're not getting good sleep, you have executive functioning difficulties. And if you have ADHD, you have executive functioning difficulties. So if you've got both, then that's a tough day. So what were some of the strategies that you were using to support yourself on those tough days? One of the things that I do anyway is because I have the luxury of scheduling clients around my schedule. I don't schedule anyone before 10 AM just to give myself that buffer. And then the other thing that I did was just a lot of kindness, because I found when I am already having executive function difficulties, there is no need to layer shame and anger and frustration on top of that. It's kind of just like accepting that, you know, you didn't sleep well, you know, that this is going to be an issue. There's no need to add on because for the most part, we can deal with the executive function dysfunction on one day. It's when it kind of builds up and then there are different strategies for that. Yeah. In terms of sleep, it's just today is going to be a bad day and that's okay, rather than adding on all the emotional stuff that comes with it. Yeah, that's a really good point, for sure. What about you, Ollie? What was your like, biggest one? I was actually trying to think about it. I might actually just be sleep again. I think purely because of time blindness as well, it was really hard to keep up a steady nighttime routine, doing that at the same time. And especially if I'm getting super into a task, I might just look at the clock and it'd be midnight, and I'm like, oh, well, that's kind of just out the window. So it was really hard. And they don't really, we couldn't really find any ways around that because it was just focused on... sleep hygiene, which a lot of the research we found didn't really help. Like a lot of things like people tell you about blue light, only shift your sleep patterns by about five minutes and then you can sleep. Like it does affect your sleep, but the amount of time people think it affects your sleep isn't actually that long. So it wasn't that effective. Yeah, I think that for that, the research is more around the stimulation that you get from the task that you're doing with the blue light. So there's a statistical significance, but it's 10 minutes. which is statistically significant, but not practically significant. That's really interesting. Yeah, because we do help a lot of people with their evening routines. We mentioned the blue light and the sleep hygiene, but a lot of it comes down to reducing, like stepping your dopamine down and transitioning. And like you said, Ollie, having that externalized time so that you have a sense of the time passing. So kind of trying to. put time in as many places as possible, like on the wall, on digital things, timers, but maybe also a speaking clock in the evening to try and bring the sense of time into it. Because like you said, you can really just go, oh my gosh. Because it's not necessarily associated with how you feel. We don't sense time very well and we don't necessarily have a good sense of, oh, I'm tired, it must be 12 or it must be whatever time it is. Going through all the things we do, I think the biggest thing is consistency of just trying to... Because the novelty always runs out, so it's really hard to maintain those routines without the novelty. And we try really hard and we still have stuff lying all over the place of things that we've tried, but inevitably the novelty runs out, the dopamine runs out, and we have to try and pivot onto a different activity. And that happens a lot. There's that, and I think another big barrier is... If we don't write down the things we discussed in the podcast about 10 minutes after the podcast, we might forget. So usually when we go to the update episode, we find out that we forgot about three of them. So I think slowly we, we made the task simple, or maybe we'll only focus on three of them, because if it's just five, the other two are just going to get cut out or we'll just completely erase from our, it's kind of like a screen wipe. Just everything kind of disappears. It's the tough part of the working memory struggle is that you don't remember what you learned. Yeah. And I have an inattentive type. So mine is more focused on that working memory part. Yeah. It's one of the reasons that, you know, having something like a podcast or an article, it's not just for other people. I mean, it is great to share it, but it's also for us. Absolutely. One of the things that I've learned through doing the podcast. has been, it's okay to change. We had these chore bracelets that I don't know if you remember, but they were all over TikTok for a bit. Yes, I do. Yeah. And they were so effective at getting us to do routines for a month. And then after that, looking at them made me angry. We still have them, they're still lying, like just over there. But what I have found is that when I have to do something, school-related that needs extra executive function, using something like the chore bracelet that I know has worked in the past, helps to reduce the pressure and it helps with prioritization. Having ADHD to me is constantly trying to get my brain to learn things again and again and again in new and interesting ways. I think there's a very creative component to living with ADHD. Once I can accept that there is a problem, it can be almost fun to try and find solutions to it. And it's okay if those solutions only work for a bit, because then you can find another one. Yeah. And you could cycle back, like with the chore bracelets. For those of you who don't know, chore bracelets are like these, are yours like plastic, sort of expandable plastic that have little tags on them that you can write on? Yeah. They were everywhere. And it is interesting because now you're using a system that worked previously for something else for working on something to do with schooling. So there is the sense of coming back around, especially if you understand why. Like this is supporting my working memory. I'm currently struggling with working memory again. What did I use in the past that supported working memory? Those kinds of things, you know, it does build that scaffolding, even if it doesn't. I guess if you think about scaffolding, right, you can climb any part of it to get to the building, technically. So the metaphor still works. No, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And once you understand the basic mechanisms, it can be, especially coming back to the fact that we are partners with ADHD, it can be fun to riff ideas off of each other, even because we've taken a break. The last four months, I have experienced incredible burnout. It's been nice to even in private moments, riff. What do you think will help with this situation? It's like having basic building blocks. I think that's why the psycho education, just understanding your ADHD is so important because then you can MacGyver it. I love that MacGyver it. Yeah. So in terms of the ADHD, so I've asked you general questions. Now I have sort of more specific questions for each of you. These are the questions we ask everyone on the podcast. Tell me about a professional achievement that you're the most proud of. So I have a couple. One is getting onto the doctorate. That was really difficult. The other one is, Ollie and I actually worked together to create a program for the parents of children who came in to get diagnosed. So they would get an autism diagnosis or an ADHD diagnosis, any number of different diagnoses and comorbidities, and we would sit together and educate them and support them, especially around the trauma that kids who have ADHD or autism might experience to create a little bit of self-efficacy. Oli is actually a health psychology researcher. Researcher? He has a degree in health psychology. And one of the things is to educate so that you feel like you can do it, you can manage and it's not as pathologized because going to a doctor's office is inherently pathologizing ADHD or whatever diagnosis you are going in for. So that's something that I'm really proud of. What we're doing with the kids at the clinic, wasn't trying to just thing into the household. And like at the end of the day, we were only really doing it for an hour. Most of the work was being done by the parents. So I think it was just more effective teaching the parents and trying to get them to incorporate it into their house. Yeah, 100%. I think that's what some of the research shows as well. Yeah. What about you, Oli? What's the professional achievement that you're the most proud of? I think it was doing my masters because it was just before I got my ADHD diagnosis and I had like a mini breakdown trying to get that final paper in and I really struggled. Yeah. In general, in schooling, I struggled a lot, especially when I was younger. I was in and out of schools. And then I sort of every single thing I've done academically, I've sort of stepped up a little bit more or sort of, I think I just kind of worked out what works for me because I think before ADHD medication, I had coffee and caffeine, so I think I was kind of self-medicating with that for most of that. So I think over time I was able to just catch my groove and managed to do it. And I'm. proud that I was able to do it without a diagnosis, but I don't think I could have done it without Shoda and Shoda's help, especially in those final times. Yeah, I'm just really proud of how far I was able to get. And I think it just kind of the diagnosis just made everything make more sense in hindsight. But then I still have a lot of regret of like wishing I could have done way better, way earlier if I got that diagnosis. I guess it's that embodied ableism of... comparing yourself to other people that don't have ADHD? Yeah, yeah, comparing yourself to this mythical, perfect, neurotypical, that's totally got it all together and would have killed today. Oh yeah, that can be really... Magic. Yeah, really common. Yeah, and so on the other side, do you have, so I'll ask each of you, do you have a professional failure that you find embarrassing and how did you deal with it? I dropped out of my undergrad talking about this idea of you're too smart. When I went in for my undergrad, I moved from Dubai to Canada and it was my first time and I decided that I didn't have ADHD and didn't need medication and I didn't need support and I stopped all my medication really suddenly and this is my PSA, please don't do that. It was very destabilizing and I became very depressed and it was awful. And it's taken a lot to process that first kind of big failure. I think I learned a lot from it. I don't know if I have any shame for that. I feel shame more when I miss deadlines. Um, or I don't do paperwork or forget things. That's where the shame is. But in terms of failure, I think. That would be my big one. Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing it because it's always, it's always good to, you know, get a well rounded view, especially if we're on these podcasts talking to people. What about you, Ollie? At one point in our clinic, all the other therapists fell sick and then I had to quickly do all the clients. So it was just the, uh, how flustered I was trying to organize all the materials, try and get everything done. And then just like. I think I managed okay, but it just felt like a complete train wreck, just trying to sort it out and how flustered I was for... And just hoping everyone kind of was better. Coming to London, I was struggling with employment the last couple of months, and I think that's been a really big struggle for me, especially since the suddenly just a big amount of unstructured time. And I have been picking up like freelance gigs and things like that, especially in research, but it's just... not having the structure and just kind of trying to find ways of trying to scaffold around that and trying to, it's just been very difficult. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Well, my last question is, if you had an ADHD life motto, what would it be? Radical self-acceptance. Nice. It's on our podcast. We yell it at the end of every single episode. Very, very cool. I think that we as practitioners and as just humans living, it can be really easy to get caught up in the minutia of everything because with ADHD especially, it's so easy to get lost in details. I find that the most important therapeutic intervention that I have is just self-compassion and radically allowing yourself to exist as you are. And it's such a difficult thing to do, and no one is ever going to be perfect at it. But I think that in itself can be accepted, and you can give compassion to that. We're not really masters at it. I mean, we say it all the time, but I think it's always a work in progress of trying to... get through it, because at the end of the day, it's really hard not to compare yourself with other people, but it's working on just accepting yourself unconditionally. Because especially early in my diagnosis, it was really hard to accept that I had ADHD. It was sort of, no, so especially thinking about the time lost and things like that, it was very much from the get-go, it was sort of a work in progress of accepting my diagnosis and accepting myself. Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. It's an ongoing process. And talking to other people with ADHD or listening to other people with ADHD is a really, really helpful addition to that as well. Nice. Well, thank you so much for coming on today. If people want to learn more about you, find out what you do. Where can they find you? You can find us on any platform that you listen to podcasts except YouTube. We are working on that. Our podcast is called Mindfully ADHD. And on Instagram, you can find us at Mindfully ADHD podcast. We're both currently working on more content for it. We took a break from Instagram for a bit, but the podcast is more up to date. So we'd love to hear from you if you have any feedback. Yeah, awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much, Shoda and Ollie, for coming on for. sharing your experiences of ADHD and ADHD together. It's been really great chatting with you and definitely everyone check out the podcast. It's always fun to see somebody trying different things and testing different things out. It's one of my favorite things to do with ADHD and to learn about. Really great to have you on. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah. Thank you so much. It's been an honor to talk to you. 

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